Strong man and martial arts

repz

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Bodybuilders often look strong, but aren't. As with most things, bodybuilding as a sport has a very specific aesthetic.

Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is to blame. They dont have as much real world strength as the strength guys lifting trucks.

The guys lifting trucks do have huge muscles, but with big guts and layers of fat engulfing their huge muscles. Obviously, it doesnt look appealing, but if they burned the fat, they would look at the same beastly level as a bodybuilder, but with realistic relations to strength.
 

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Daniel, I think we are getting our signals a little crossed. When you say bodybuilding, I think specifically about the sport. And just for what it's worth, based upon what I've learned of it from friends who did it, it's about the most unhealthy "fitness" activity around. The pursuit of very specific lines and muscle development coupled with a crazy low body fat is terribly unhealthy. Add steroids and hgh to the mix and it just gets worse.

So weight lifting and strentgh training are good but body building is bad. I think it's just semantics.
 

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Yeah I keep seeing it as a too brawd a stroke there myself...
Daniel, may I ask what exactly are you talking about with body building..? I know 3 major forms of body building;
1. The sport of body building; which stevebjj has done well enough explaining...
2. Strength Training; which is using body wieght & wieght lifting exercises to get stronger & build endurance...
3. Fittness Training; which uses reistance exercises, wieght training, cardio & flexibility conditioning to improve health in general.

As for Lee being a body builder well yes and no; Lee was an advocate of fittness training and did allot of cardio. However, Lee never tried to "sculpt his body" into a specific form. In fact looking at a picture of Lee from"Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" Lee wasn't very big or as pronounced as any "body builders" of his time or now...
 

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Daniel, I think we are getting our signals a little crossed. When you say bodybuilding, I think specifically about the sport.
I had mentioned Lee and Lundgren because I believe Lee, but definitely Lundgren specifically stated that they did "body building", though you are correct: I am referring to it in the general sense, not as the competitive sense.

Both men did/do a fair amount of body sculpting, and the look that Lee had and Lundgren has, even into his fifties, is not one that you would get without at least some isolation training. But I think that the bulk of what both men did was geared towards the practical and isolation training was used to develop their looks for the screen.

And just for what it's worth, based upon what I've learned of it from friends who did it, it's about the most unhealthy "fitness" activity around. The pursuit of very specific lines and muscle development coupled with a crazy low body fat is terribly unhealthy. Add steroids and hgh to the mix and it just gets worse.
Roids and HGH are not specific to body building, but body building is certainly the most famous for it. Lots of unhealthy practices in competition body building. Last muscle fitness mag I picked up was good for an afternoon of, frankly puzzlement. Years back when I followed it and regularly read Muscle Fitness, the contestants all looked like Greek sculpture. Now? They look like Bane from the last Burton era Batman flick. Honestly, it made me wonder if they know how they really look.

By the way, I do not consider body building a sport. I still remember a time when nobody else did either. Body building is a physique focused beauty pageant. Aside from the (at this point) freaky looking physiques, the competition is also decided by how well the contestants can pose, the selection and sequence of poses and the way in which one pose transitions into another, at least that is what is was like when I followed it years ago. A top body builder, provided he or she had the flexibility and trained correctly, would probably do well in poomsae/kata in terms of visual presentation.

So weight lifting and strength training are good but body building is bad. I think it's just semantics.
One can build their body through weight lifting and strength training. But body-building the competitive activity is distinct. One is form, the other is function.

Daniel
 

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I think I understand where you're coming from, Daniel. I think that it's clearly a sport in that it's a competitive activity that is physical in which there is a winner and a loser that's not predetermined.

Regarding the way they look, I've thought about that, too and think I can in a small way relate to it. In grappling, I'll admit that 20 years ago I would have thought that cauliflower ear was really ugly. Now, though, I just don't think it's that big a deal.
 

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Yeah I keep seeing it as a too brawd a stroke there myself...
Daniel, may I ask what exactly are you talking about with body building..? I know 3 major forms of body building;
1. The sport of body building; which stevebjj has done well enough explaining...
2. Strength Training; which is using body wieght & wieght lifting exercises to get stronger & build endurance...
3. Fittness Training; which uses reistance exercises, wieght training, cardio & flexibility conditioning to improve health in general.

As for Lee being a body builder well yes and no; Lee was an advocate of fittness training and did allot of cardio. However, Lee never tried to "sculpt his body" into a specific form. In fact looking at a picture of Lee from"Bruce Lee's Fighting Method" Lee wasn't very big or as pronounced as any "body builders" of his time or now...
Just a clarification: Lee and Lungren were not body builders, but did use of isolation training to sculpt their bodies. Lee was actually quite pronounced for the era (early seventies) for a guy who wasn't a pro body builder.

Where I am coming from is using the term loosely to describe two and/or three with incorporation of some isolation training for the purpose of sculpting.

Personally, I would love to see an actual body builder join the class. Mainly out of curiosity and because it would look cool. My feeling is that if the guy or gal could leave the narcissism and ego at the door and not see the arts as a contest of strength, he or she could be an excellent student. Certainly, a competitive body builder has the drive to train hard and diligently, which is a quality that many students of the arts could use a bit more of.

And it would be kind of cool to see a Jay Cutler looking guy practicing poomsae.

Daniel
 

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Sometimes body building (not the 2%-body-fat-sport but rather the concentration on making muscles bigger and stronger) is the only way to move beyond a plateau. You have to exaggerate the demand in order to force your body to adapt to the artificial circumstances or your progress might taper off to the point where improvement seems insignificant. Technique isn't everything, it's just how you make the most of your brute force. Generally a larger muscle is a faster muscle and has the strength to make more precise movements without getting "shaky" but they also burn a proportianately larger amount of energy . Functionality is the key and you have to find your personal sweet spot. You also have to choose whether you want to run with your genetic pre-disposition or round of the natural weak spots instead. To do both goes without saying as overlap is unavoidable but overall you choose where to concentrate your efforts. You may not choose what will pay off more for the amount of effort you put in and your goals might not be fully in line with your natural abilities. This can be discouraging if you're used to rapid progress.
 

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Just a clarification: Lee and Lungren were not body builders, but did use of isolation training to sculpt their bodies. Lee was actually quite pronounced for the era (early seventies) for a guy who wasn't a pro body builder.

Actually I'm gonna have to ask for a source on that or call BS, Lee never tried to scuplt his body, but he was scuplted. Of course Lee used a lot of cardio, combined with wieght lifting, isometrics and body wieght calisthenics. But, Lee's focus was on being fit & while Lee had a "six pack" he also had very developped oblics which gave him a very powerful core area. By contrast, many body builders have weaker oblics to make their waist appear more trimmed.

Where I am coming from is using the term loosely to describe two and/or three with incorporation of some isolation training for the purpose of sculpting.

Scuplting isn't good, you can get a sculpted appearance from a lot of cardio and wieght training. Also isolation exercises don't sculpt you, they do concentrate the force along a sprecific muscle or muscle group. A push-up, pull-up and a dip can be considered an isolation exercise as they isolate specific muscles & muscle groups. Sculpting is done using any exercise via phases; a building period, toning period, cardio period & a resting/recovery period. Isolation exercises just build muscle in specific muscles and are used by Body Builders to build specific muscles for appearance; but the exercises alone do not establish a sculpted appearance.
 

repz

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A natural bodybuilder (no roids) who has an amazing body that many here claim as "sculpted", reached that point by burning off the fat, which has the appearance of stretching the skin around the body as fat is removed (showing off the muscles). The process of burning fat is done usually by supersets or circuit training, or cardio, or other intensive fat burning workouts. So, bascially, these men not only lift (even with sacroplasmic that i pointed out) they still recieve vast amounts of strength then a non bodybuilder, and they endured serious hours of cardio and cardio-like workouts, which builds endurance and cardiovascular strength (which has many reasons for a martial artists, and for life itself), to burn the fat to attain such phsyiques.

So sculpting isnt bad, its actually a result from both strength and burning fat. Youd be suprised how long and intensive a nat bodybuilder can jog, which shows how powerful their endurance level is.
 

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A natural bodybuilder (no roids) who has an amazing body that many here claim as "sculpted", reached that point by burning off the fat, which has the appearance of stretching the skin around the body as fat is removed (showing off the muscles). The process of burning fat is done usually by supersets or circuit training, or cardio, or other intensive fat burning workouts. So, bascially, these men not only lift (even with sacroplasmic that i pointed out) they still recieve vast amounts of strength then a non bodybuilder, and they endured serious hours of cardio and cardio-like workouts, which builds endurance and cardiovascular strength (which has many reasons for a martial artists, and for life itself), to burn the fat to attain such phsyiques.

So sculpting isnt bad, its actually a result from both strength and burning fat. Youd be suprised how long and intensive a nat bodybuilder can jog, which shows how powerful their endurance level is.
Once again, I think we're getting mixed up here. "Sculpting" in order to be successful in body building competitions can actually lead to an illusion of health that isn't there. Personally, I don't doubt that many of the training techniques are very good. It's the goal that's suspect... the body image.

http://www.recipezaar.com/members/home/58382/Joe.jpg

This guy is a body builder. Joe the body builder. I just picked him out of a bing image list because he doesn't look completely out of sorts. We can all find images that are grotesque exaggarations, but I think this guy represents what many would call a "balanced" body building ideal. Not completely over the top.

http://www.born2bbig.com/viewpic.php?im=images/profilepics/1151469653.jpg

That's randy couture. Both are big guys. Both lift weights, work a lot of cardio, have a low BF% and are, in their own ways, sculpting a physique. Who do you think is stronger? I'd put my money on Randy Couture for functional strength. His core is so much more developed, so while his arms and legs aren't as big, his body is much, much stronger through the core. This makes couture look thicker through the middle, which isn't desirable in a body building competition.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with Repz or Draven. I really think we're all saying the same things, just from two different directions, and we're getting hung up on terms like "bodybuilding" and "sculpting". Just to make it clear where I'm at once again, I think of bodybuilding as the sport... sort of like MMA is the sport.
 

repz

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Once again, I think we're getting mixed up here. "Sculpting" in order to be successful in body building competitions can actually lead to an illusion of health that isn't there. Personally, I don't doubt that many of the training techniques are very good. It's the goal that's suspect... the body image.

http://www.recipezaar.com/members/home/58382/Joe.jpg

This guy is a body builder. Joe the body builder. I just picked him out of a bing image list because he doesn't look completely out of sorts. We can all find images that are grotesque exaggarations, but I think this guy represents what many would call a "balanced" body building ideal. Not completely over the top.

http://www.born2bbig.com/viewpic.php?im=images/profilepics/1151469653.jpg

That's randy couture. Both are big guys. Both lift weights, work a lot of cardio, have a low BF% and are, in their own ways, sculpting a physique. Who do you think is stronger? I'd put my money on Randy Couture for functional strength. His core is so much more developed, so while his arms and legs aren't as big, his body is much, much stronger through the core. This makes couture look thicker through the middle, which isn't desirable in a body building competition.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with Repz or Draven. I really think we're all saying the same things, just from two different directions, and we're getting hung up on terms like "bodybuilding" and "sculpting". Just to make it clear where I'm at once again, I think of bodybuilding as the sport... sort of like MMA is the sport.

Huh? I dont understand your example. I posted sacroplasmic hypertrphy which was the nail in the coffin for your arguement aganist the other poster about functional strength, meaning i agreed.

You quoted me where I said "sculpting" is actually burning fat, which is cardio-like workouts, which build endurance and other positive attributes. Unless you take drugs, you have to burn the fat the hard way, and basically spend hours circuit training, or jogging, which means natural bodybuilders have very high endurance. PLUS have a healthy diet to not gather unhealthy fat. This goes for both natural bodybuilding, boxing, whoever that wants to burn fat, replace the extra lbs with muscles, and still stay in their weight category.

That was my point, it was to state how loose the term "sculpting" is being thrown around (which it appears to be mis-stated as the appearance of ripped muscles) as if its evil or somehow is something alien to health, yet to attain such sculpted muscles requires the endurance type training to burn the layers of fat over the muscles, thats all. Look at George St peirre, amazing sculpted body, and hes like the main advocate of circuit-like training in this day and age.
 

Xue Sheng

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sculpt

1.Fine Arts. to carve, model, or make by using the techniques of sculpture.

2.to form, shape, or manipulate, as in the manner of sculpture:
 

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Huh? I dont understand your example. I posted sacroplasmic hypertrphy which was the nail in the coffin for your arguement aganist the other poster about functional strength, meaning i agreed.

You quoted me where I said "sculpting" is actually burning fat, which is cardio-like workouts, which build endurance and other positive attributes. Unless you take drugs, you have to burn the fat the hard way, and basically spend hours circuit training, or jogging, which means natural bodybuilders have very high endurance. PLUS have a healthy diet to not gather unhealthy fat. This goes for both natural bodybuilding, boxing, whoever that wants to burn fat, replace the extra lbs with muscles, and still stay in their weight category.

That was my point, it was to state how loose the term "sculpting" is being thrown around (which it appears to be mis-stated as the appearance of ripped muscles) as if its evil or somehow is something alien to health, yet to attain such sculpted muscles requires the endurance type training to burn the layers of fat over the muscles, thats all. Look at George St peirre, amazing sculpted body, and hes like the main advocate of circuit-like training in this day and age.
First, on a practical level "drugs" are really just "supplements" that are illegal. But that's a different discussion. GSP and everyone of those guys takes supplements to aid in everything from lean muscle development to explosive power to metabolic stimulants and everything in between. Whether or not they cycle HGH in combination with some kind of steroid cocktail, they are all taking something.

But, as for the rest, I guess I can't help you. I've said repeatedly that I think we're using the same terms in different ways and that we're not communicating as a result. I've then tried to define the way I'm using the terms. I still don't think any of us are saying anything very different, but maybe I'm wrong. That said, I'm not sure where I quoted you as saying that sculpting is simply burning fat and agreeing with that. I've been wrong before, though.
 

repz

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First, on a practical level "drugs" are really just "supplements" that are illegal. But that's a different discussion. GSP and everyone of those guys takes supplements to aid in everything from lean muscle development to explosive power to metabolic stimulants and everything in between. Whether or not they cycle HGH in combination with some kind of steroid cocktail, they are all taking something.

But, as for the rest, I guess I can't help you. I've said repeatedly that I think we're using the same terms in different ways and that we're not communicating as a result. I've then tried to define the way I'm using the terms. I still don't think any of us are saying anything very different, but maybe I'm wrong. That said, I'm not sure where I quoted you as saying that sculpting is simply burning fat and agreeing with that. I've been wrong before, though.

If you add GSP to that list of using chemicals, wouldnt it be fair to add Couture in your example as well?

The quote I was mentioning was the post you did before this. My post was about how to created a tight body and the hardship to gain it, not a disagreement over functional strength which your post seemed to be leading to. I guess you thought I was supporting whoever you were debating, which I dont do unless i quote you directly (a better example of power without rippiness is matt hughes and fedor, both have bulky bodies but arent cut, but they are strong like bears). Only thing I disagreed to is saying that sculpting as you put it, " is not good", which I believe isnt true because the act of defining the muscle is from endurance and cardio workouts (which have tons of benefits, and i see as good), which i believe you did say in one of your posts anyway where you mentioned cardio over isolation for "sculpting". Everything else, I agree to, lol.

Maybe it was a bit of misunderstanding. I personaly train people as a side job and hobby, and theres so many misconceptions that I might be picking out what I might be misunderstanding as inconsistencies in posts.
 

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If you add GSP to that list of using chemicals, wouldnt it be fair to add Couture in your example as well?
Absolutely. I've never taken a position that they don't all use some kind of supplements. I was specifically commenting on your assertion that if they don't cycle anabolic steroids, they're just relying on good old fashioned hard work and sweat. You said, "Unless you take drugs, you have to burn the fat the hard way, and basically spend hours circuit training, or jogging, which means natural bodybuilders have very high endurance."

That's a gross oversimplification of the subject. They're ALL taking supplements that help with every aspect of their training. But even "natural" bodybuilders take supplements to maximize their training performance. The point I was making is that there is a fundamental distinction between the bodybuilder and someone like GSP or Couture, and it isn't steroids. The difference between Couture and a professional bodybuilder is that Couture is working specifically to increase functional strength while a bodybuilder is focusing on acheiving an aesthetic "ideal" often at odds with functional performance.

And once again, I'm less concerned with whether we're using the term "sculpting" or "bodybuilding" or whatever as long as we all understand what is meant. I believe that the crux of the last 10 posts in this thread is in getting hung up on semantics. So, ultimately, if you disagree with me, it's all good... as long as you understand what I'm saying and I understand what you're saying. :)
The quote I was mentioning was the post you did before this. My post was about how to created a tight body and the hardship to gain it, not a disagreement over functional strength which your post seemed to be leading to. I guess you thought I was supporting whoever you were debating, which I dont do unless i quote you directly (a better example of power without rippiness is matt hughes and fedor, both have bulky bodies but arent cut, but they are strong like bears).
No problem. I thought about those guys, but really was trying to show an example of the fundamental difference between strength training and bodybuilding. Couture was a good example, in my opinion, specifically because you can see that in spite of a developed physique and low body fat, he would never win any kind of bodybuilding competition because he hasn't pursued that aesthetic ideal.
Only thing I disagreed to is saying that sculpting as you put it, " is not good", which I believe isnt true because the act of defining the muscle is from endurance and cardio workouts (which have tons of benefits, and i see as good), which i believe you did say in one of your posts anyway where you mentioned cardio over isolation for "sculpting". Everything else, I agree to, lol.
I'm totally cool with this. As you're using the term, I can see your point.
Maybe it was a bit of misunderstanding. I personaly train people as a side job and hobby, and theres so many misconceptions that I might be picking out what I might be misunderstanding as inconsistencies in posts.
I figured that was the case. Again, and I've said it before, I don't think that you, Draven Daniel or I are saying anything too different. I just think we're getting signals crossed based upon subtle differences in how we're using specific terms.
 

repz

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Absolutely. I've never taken a position that they don't all use some kind of supplements. I was specifically commenting on your assertion that if they don't cycle anabolic steroids, they're just relying on good old fashioned hard work and sweat. You said, "Unless you take drugs, you have to burn the fat the hard way, and basically spend hours circuit training, or jogging, which means natural bodybuilders have very high endurance."

Yes, they do do it the hardway. Everyone uses supplements, even mma, even in the 1930's before steroids when they just drank more milk and raw eggs. But steriods is a worlds difference from whats avialable in supplements, and natural bodybuilders go under more tests than mma. To use steroids, you can triple your gains and keep you in an unnatural state of constant muscle building where the normal human body can no longer produce testerone after an hr of working out or so depending on genes, theres not a product in the shelves that can do that, if anything there is more rip offs and misleading products. And if you still disagree with bodybuilders, which I was never really supporting in my posts, I just used them as an example of what work needed to be put in to attain that body, then old school karatekas and kung fu stylists have had ripped muscles. A body cant get ripped on any supplement unless it modified your bodies make up like steriod does, if that werent true, then all those fake "weight loss" pills would be true, or the ones that work would be legal and not kill you in a week.

Maybe a better example would be someone who has a career in endurance. Theres no surprise that they look ripped, even the skinny ones have visible abs and muscles. Even martial artists who dont lift can look ripped from fat burning.

Basically, it sums up to how to attain a ripped body. And thats through endurance/fat burning, and regardless of whatever profession, it is a positive benefit. Fat burning eliminates the layer to make whats under it visible.


That's a gross oversimplification of the subject. They're ALL taking supplements that help with every aspect of their training. But even "natural" bodybuilders take supplements to maximize their training performance. The point I was making is that there is a fundamental distinction between the bodybuilder and someone like GSP or Couture, and it isn't steroids. The difference between Couture and a professional bodybuilder is that Couture is working specifically to increase functional strength while a bodybuilder is focusing on acheiving an aesthetic "ideal" often at odds with functional performance.

And once again, I'm less concerned with whether we're using the term "sculpting" or "bodybuilding" or whatever as long as we all understand what is meant. I believe that the crux of the last 10 posts in this thread is in getting hung up on semantics. So, ultimately, if you disagree with me, it's all good... as long as you understand what I'm saying and I understand what you're saying. :)No problem. I thought about those guys, but really was trying to show an example of the fundamental difference between strength training and bodybuilding. Couture was a good example, in my opinion, specifically because you can see that in spite of a developed physique and low body fat, he would never win any kind of bodybuilding competition because he hasn't pursued that aesthetic ideal. I'm totally cool with this. As you're using the term, I can see your point.I figured that was the case. Again, and I've said it before, I don't think that you, Draven Daniel or I are saying anything too different. I just think we're getting signals crossed based upon subtle differences in how we're using specific terms.

I know what you meant, and again, I said I agree with the lack of functional strength. This was from an earlier post.

Originally Posted by stevebjj
Bodybuilders often look strong, but aren't. As with most things, bodybuilding as a sport has a very specific aesthetic.

[Quote from me earlier post]
Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is to blame. They dont have as much real world strength as the strength guys lifting trucks.

The guys lifting trucks do have huge muscles, but with big guts and layers of fat engulfing their huge muscles. Obviously, it doesnt look appealing, but if they burned the fat, they would look at the same beastly level as a bodybuilder, but with realistic relations to strength.

So I dont see the confusion, or the need to keep stating functional strength if I said this before you started even quoting me. I was stating that 'sculpting' is good, its a byproduct of endurance and cardio workouts, regardless if you agrue about bodybuilders or not, thats all.

It doesnt mean i expect bodybuilders to fight. Like i said in my earlier posts, i am an advocate of strength training over bodybuilding. But I do burn a lot of fat in kyokushin, and my body is looking ripped as hell from it.
 

Bill Mattocks

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http://www.mmamania.com/2010/3/16/1375974/mma-quick-quote-worlds-strongest

Five-time World's Strongest Man, Mariusz Pudzianowski, tells Fighter's Only that he's signed on to face former UFC Heavyweight Champion Tim Sylvia at the upcoming Moosin event on April 23 in Worcester -- despite already being booked to fight for Polish promotion KSW on May 7.

mariusz-2_30320.jpg
 

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Repz, I'll try to keep it simple. So, without going into specifics, unless I just don't understand the thrust of your points at all, you and I agree, but for some reason keep arguing about it.
 

repz

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http://www.mmamania.com/2010/3/16/1375974/mma-quick-quote-worlds-strongest

Five-time World's Strongest Man, Mariusz Pudzianowski, tells Fighter's Only that he's signed on to face former UFC Heavyweight Champion Tim Sylvia at the upcoming Moosin event on April 23 in Worcester -- despite already being booked to fight for Polish promotion KSW on May 7.

mariusz-2_30320.jpg

What the?

How long is this guy fighting? It says in the link hes 1-0, yet he gets to come to the ufc and face a former heavyweight champion?

UFC reminds me of WWE, where celebrities in other sports, and other media, get to have the spotlight cast on them despite their young up incoming talent. I'm not going to lie though, im curious to see what happens.
 

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Actually I'm gonna have to ask for a source on that or call BS, Lee never tried to scuplt his body, but he was scuplted. Of course Lee used a lot of cardio, combined with wieght lifting, isometrics and body wieght calisthenics. But, Lee's focus was on being fit & while Lee had a "six pack" he also had very developped oblics which gave him a very powerful core area. By contrast, many body builders have weaker oblics to make their waist appear more trimmed.

Sources:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dolph_lundgren_interview.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee

The following quote is from the above wikipedia link.

"After his match with Wong Jack Man in 1965, Lee changed his approach toward martial arts training. Lee felt that many martial artists of his day did not spend enough time on physical conditioning. Bruce included all elements of total fitness—muscular strength, muscular endurance, cardiovascular endurance, and flexibility. He tried traditional bodybuilding techniques to build bulky muscles or mass. However, Lee was careful to admonish that mental and spiritual preparation was fundamental to the success of physical training in martial arts skills."

Please note that I never said that Lee was a body builder but that he used body building as a part of his fitness training as noted above. The wiki is not the only place that I have read this.

Scuplting isn't good, you can get a sculpted appearance from a lot of cardio and wieght training. Also isolation exercises don't sculpt you, they do concentrate the force along a sprecific muscle or muscle group. A push-up, pull-up and a dip can be considered an isolation exercise as they isolate specific muscles & muscle groups. Sculpting is done using any exercise via phases; a building period, toning period, cardio period & a resting/recovery period. Isolation exercises just build muscle in specific muscles and are used by Body Builders to build specific muscles for appearance; but the exercises alone do not establish a sculpted appearance.
Bolded part is what I meant by sculpting.

Daniel
 

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