Striking With Shoulder How Would You Respond?

[Zenjael]

I recently met a very skilled practitioner of Northern Shaolin and Tai Chi, and some jiujitsu. There is Capoeira used for transitioning out of encounters which prove untenable. I greatly enjoy sparring with him, but he has a shoulder strike where he leans forward, and this can easily move me several feet back.

We experimented with this, adding a front stance from TKD/karate to it, and he then was able to move our 250 pound members, both the aikido and marine, five feet with ease. I recall a historical work on martial arts by Miyamoto Miyasashi titled book of the five rings, which mentions such a technique in the book of water.

Here is the excerpt from it;

"[FONT=&amp]The Body Strike means to approach the enemy through a gap in his guard. The spirit is to strike him with your body. Turn your face a little aside and strike the enemy's breast with your left shoulder thrust out. Approach with the spirit of bouncing the enemy away, striking as strongly as possible in time with your breathing. If you achieve this method of closing with the enemy, you will be able to knock him ten or twenty feet away. It is possible to strike the enemy until he is dead. Train well. "[/FONT]

While similar to the strike in the writing does anyone know what this is called in modern systems? Or if used at all? I am curious how others would approach this, if while close it were suddenly pulled on them. A counter also.

It's rare I meet new techniques, but I like this one a lot, but want to hear even more how others on this board would treat it.

I generally stay out of range, and as I see the body strike coming I kick the lead leg out. I've considered side stepping similarly to aikido and pushing, or to kendo-step to my left at an angle, and either ridge hand, hook-punch, elbow, and etc. to the head, but I'm guessing there's an easier method I'm not thinking of.

 

[Flying Crane]

my sifu uses it, it's not that mysterious nor difficult. If you understand how to root your stance and use that to drive a strike, then using it with the shoulder as the weapon, and the mass of the body behind it, it's not that difficult.

 

[Touch Of Death]

my sifu uses it, it's not that mysterious nor difficult. If you understand how to root your stance and use that to drive a strike, then using it with the shoulder as the weapon, and the mass of the body behind it, it's not that difficult.

Exactly! Forward bows are tough all over.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Taijiquan that is called Kao (it is one of the 13postures) and it is for hitting and uprooting.

As he comes in either push lightly down on his shoulder close to his neck and he will fall down or lightly forward on his shoulder blade and he will fall forward. However which on you use depends on his rootand direction of force. However if you miss that opportunity there is little you can do (other than backup fast) since done properly it will uproot you and push you backward since he is coming from a very strong root and hitting you with most of his force.

Just be happy he did see a use for and use Zhou or Tsai

 

[Blindside]

See them regularly in rugby and even in soccer, look up "shoulder charge."

 

[Zenjael]

Xue, thank you. I take great pride in that most people who try to sweep me walk away limping. I.E, I root hard. But I have noticed the harder I'd try to stay put, the easier I'd be to shove.

I tend to prefer stepping at angles or circles to such attacks, is there no way to perhaps side step the attack? While powerful, it is still small that it shouldn't be too hard to avoid. He is very sneaky about it. I've found it better to keep my range until I find a sound method to dealing with that.

Edit; to Blindside, he doesn't run. He uses the shoulder somewhat like a wedge, more akin to how a linebacker would raise up (Asked my roomie who played football in high school and college)and then torques me around my center of gravity, and very off balance. Not good for a kicker.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

bouncing the enemy away, ...

The purpose of your shoulder strike is not to bounce your opponent away but to set up something. I don't believe you can kill your opponent by your shoulder strike. When you use upward and downward separate hands to move your opponent's one arm up and one arm down, you can slide in and strike your opponent's chest with your shoulder. When your opponent's body is uprooting, you can either get his leading leg for knee seize, wrap your arm around his waist for hip throw, or ...

 

[Zenjael]

I can quite assure you, it bounces people. At the very least forces us back a number of steps, and very off balance.

Maybe it's just cause I'm little, though, that I tend to get launched lol.

 

[mook jong man]

With a shoulder charge I step slightly off the line of attack to the outside , parry his shoulder with both hands and bury a knee strike into his quadricep as he goes past.

At close range we use a double armed deflection called Seung Bong (double bong sau) with a 45 degree pivot to redirect the charge , this can also be used to elbow strike his upper bicep or tricep.
But having said that , if the head area is open , just palm strike them in the head.

Some lineages of Wing Chun use them as a means of recovery when the arm is trapped or otherwise restricted or as a last line of defence when the arm has been parried at the elbow.
But to be honest if you let your upper arm be controlled like that you haven't done your job properly as a Wing Chun man.

The use of the shoulder has it's place in certain circumstances , and as with the elbow strike it can be very devastating as a close range weapon.
But used at the wrong range or without adequately trapping a limb , the range of the punch will negate the elbow strike or shoulder strike.

 

[WC_lun]

As MJM said, as a Wing Chun person, if you've let a person in that close on your centerline, you've messed up somewhere. The shoulder is effective if you find yourself in close, but be careful about using it. If you are knocking your oppopnent back without controlling him, you are just resetting the encounter, not taking advantage of a situation. A skilled fighter will use your shoulder strike to gain space and use that space against you. It is pretty easy to do, especially considering that most people that throw the shoulder are very slow to follow up on it.

If you are refercing the TKD as a T-type forward stance, you are actually robbing power from that shoulder strike, if thrown properly. In a t-stance, you actually have to overcome your own leg to get power into the target with this type of strike, which makes follow up on the shoulder strike even slower than it normally would be, giving your opponent a place to attach to. That can be very bad if that lead leg is imobile because of the energy you just put into it.

 

[oaktree]

Shoulder strike is something Chen Xiao Wang uses alot in Chen Taijiquan.

 

[Zenjael]

To WC_Lun, I am not a primarily wing chun man. Beginner at best. to use any of my hapkido training requires, to a degree, the kind of range which allows the shoulder strike to be effective. You are right, he is slow on the follow up. Would that be a good time to counter? It's difficult with having lost center of gravity, and control of space.

I'm beginning to suspect a neat horizontal elbow clip to the head, while stepping back (or rolling shoulder back) will make it miss and cause him to go off balance. Perhaps I am wrong.

The idea of palm striking to the head is nice, and a natural reaction, but in sparring its complicated by escalation. I like your counter the most though. In a survival setting I'm betting that would work the best. Thank you.

 

[oaktree]

You know Baguazhang has shoulder strikes too.

Gripping, pinching, covering, or stroking, no matter, use the will;
Stick to the body shoulder strike cannot be slack.

-Cheng style classic saying
In Baguazhang I believe the term is 扣 meaning Kou and is used as a shoulder strike.

I can use my shoulder to strike the enemy’s chest.

-16 secrets of Baguazhang application.
If you look at the palm changes and entering you can see it. Many of the different Baguazhang styles have shoulder strikes. I think it is a very common attack in Chinese martial arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why do you want to bounce your opponent away with your shoulder strike? One should keep his friends close but his enemy closer.

 

[Cyriacus]

*shrugs*
Closest thing ive ever done is running forward shoulder first, then pushing the other person back a few steps, like a ramming action from hands distance (Note, im saying to move with them. Not mystically bounce them), as a way of getting inside. I dont see much point in using it any other way, when you could just clinch.

Edit: Oh, right. What would we do about it.
Since they turned their body over to the side, just grab them around the waist over the arms, and toss them. Optionally, takedown. They chose the range, after all.

 

[blindsage]

If a taiji/bagua style shoulder strike is done really well, it won't just bounce you away, it will uproot and have the opponent horizontal and hitting the ground hard. A lot of people also say "why would you want to bounce your opponent away"? In a self defense situation? Because it's a devastating way of using your environment. Slam them to the floor, slam them against a wall or a table or a car. Not fun. Especially if the person is good at it.

As to defense against it, just what Xue said, but in addition don't get stiff and resist it, relax. Good rooting is not just stiffly dead weighting, it should also be mobile. If the shoulder hits you and you're relaxed and rooted, you should be able to roll around the incoming force. If you go flying backwards it's because you either have no root, or because you are mistaking tension for root.

 

[arnisador]

We do it in the Filipino martial arts.

 

[WC_lun]

To WC_Lun, I am not a primarily wing chun man. Beginner at best. to use any of my hapkido training requires, to a degree, the kind of range which allows the shoulder strike to be effective. You are right, he is slow on the follow up. Would that be a good time to counter? It's difficult with having lost center of gravity, and control of space.

I'm beginning to suspect a neat horizontal elbow clip to the head, while stepping back (or rolling shoulder back) will make it miss and cause him to go off balance. Perhaps I am wrong.

The idea of palm striking to the head is nice, and a natural reaction, but in sparring its complicated by escalation. I like your counter the most though. In a survival setting I'm betting that would work the best. Thank you.

The things you are thinking of countering with will not work. If you have no root, and if you are being knocked back you do not, no strike is going to have sufficient force to effect anything. You'd be splitting your energy, with most of it going backwards.

The best counter would to not let your opponent get inside your guard like that. That is grappling range and as a striker, that is very dangerous ground for you. So even if you aren't a Wing Chun guy, you haven't done your job. If your opponent is in on you like that, you are going to have to recover. There are different ways of doing that, but they all depend on your experience and sensitivity to where the force of the shoulder strike is going. Rolling with it and redirecting the energy so it doesn't knock you back is probably the most effective. If you have the time, you can lift the opposite shoulder, push back the hip, or lift thier chin to keep the energy of thier strike from coming directly into your centerline, but all of those take time you may not have. There are other counters, but again, they take time you may not have and honestly speaking, experience and knowledge you do not possess yet. If you are being knocked back, none of them will work.

I would say job one is do not let them get into grappling range. Job 2 is to learn and really understand what is meant by rooting. I see many martial artist use this phrase, but very few actually understand what it is. If you are being knocked back you are not rooting properly. When rooted properly, the energy of a strike is transferred so you don't eat the brunt of it. No, it isn't mystical, it involves anatomical structure and physics Job 3 is if you are getting knocked back is to realize how the space and timing has changed and account for it. If your opponent is not attached, you have basically just reset status quo. If your opponent is still attached after knockng you back, you are in big trouble because they knew exactly what they were doing and did it to put you in a position it will be very difficult if not impossible to return from.

 

[Makalakumu]

Pivot, grab, and throw.

 

[geezer]

In Wing Chun stemming from the "WT" lineages there is a very effective bok-da or shoulder-punch applied at very close range, often as a defense against an attempted arm grapple. It doesn't rise up from the ground like a football hit, and it isn't a "push". It snaps sideways horizontally with a sharp release of springy energy generated by the stance and torso, and done right it can not only knock the wind out of you, it can put you through the wall.

BTW, that's not an exaggeration. I once saw LT demonstrate this technique on one of my kung-fu brothers and it literally drove him butt first through the wall. Fortunately, he impacted between the studs, so it was mostly just the layers of drywall that gave way. Nevertheless, we were asked by the hotel management never to come back. Sheesh! Some people just don't appreciate martial artistry.