Strike with top of wrist (Koken uchi)

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by crushing, Feb 22, 2007.

  1. crushing

    crushing Grandmaster

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    I've been reading about various types of hand strikes and the strike with the top of the wrist aka koken uchi came up. We've even practiced this kind of strike in class before.

    I don't know that I would ever apply this strike in a real, or even sparring type situation, but maybe that is because I don't fully understand or appreciate it. It seems that it would put your wrist at too much rist.

    So I am curious: Do you practice this type of strike? Do you see it as having any advantages in particular situations? Perhaps specifically as a groin strike? Also, what is the Korean term for this strike?

    I would appreciate your comments on the application of koken uchi. Thank you.
     
  2. Brandon Fisher

    Brandon Fisher Master Black Belt

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    I use Koken Uchi and Uke a lot even break boards with it but it takes a lot of conditioning to apply it. I always suggest using it as a soft area strike. I am one of a few I know of that breaks using it.
     
  3. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't doubt it..
     
  4. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Purple Belt

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    If you are describing the strike I think you are, it can work well as a counter in trapping range, especially to the throat.
     
  5. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    I have seen that move, but he's talking about breaking boards..I guess anything is possible with training and conditioning..
     
  6. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    I've broken wood with a wrist I've broken before I started training.

    I think I'd likely use this IRL to soft spots and the left temple if I had to, the TMJ, maybe some lower ribs ....
     
  7. Brandon Fisher

    Brandon Fisher Master Black Belt

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    Its tough. I will see if I can get a video of it tonight and and the conditioning on the makiwara post it here.
     
  8. charyuop

    charyuop Black Belt

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    We have never used it in Aikido, but my Sifu mentioned it in Tai Chi. By the way she told me it is not really putting the wrist in danger, unless you strike with a wrong posture. The idea is not striking with the wrist part, but with the ending part of your forearm bone. Actually I have tried on my table and it hurts less then striking with the knuckles, but to test it I tried always on the table to change the angle and arrive middle wrist first (was not a hard strike) and it hurt alot. Now if the strike instead of hitting the right spot goes lower towards the hand, thus closer to the wrist, then yes you would compress the wrist and risk to break it, or at least a great pain.
    But I have never done it so all I can say is what I was told by my Sifu.
     
  9. CuongNhuka

    CuongNhuka Senior Master

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    go straight up, right under the other guys throat. you open him/her to an elbow. thats real fun to do.
     
  10. crushing

    crushing Grandmaster

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    I can see that. Sometimes the hand/arm position is right for a quick palm-heel or knife-hand and the koken uchi may be just the thing.

    I want to clarify that I'm not necessarily interested in using it to break boards, but for examples such as CuongNhuka, shesulsa, charyuop, Brandon Fisher, and Kwan Jang provided.

    Throat, temple, lower ribs, in trapping range. Good ideas. I'm starting to see it. It is just an unconvential strike to me.

    Would the Korean term be 'sonmak chigi'?
     
  11. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Troll

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    When I practiced it, it was in Praying Mantis Kung Fu. We used it like this: the opponent strikes, you trap (classic praying mantis trap, both hands over the top of the opponent's forearm [his punching arm]), then your hand that is closest to the opponent shoots upward, your fingers pinched together and pointing toward you, so that you strike with your wrist. Someone else mentioned that you're hitting with the lower bones of your forearm, not the small bones of your hand--this means (as long as you don't his his thick skull) you probably won't break anything in your hand. The strike was aimed for the throat, under the chin, or the nose. Very fast, very sneaky, very difficult to defend against after being trapped. Good luck in your exploration...
     
  12. Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

    Kembudo-Kai Kempoka Senior Master

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    My exposure was also from Mantis. And I used it quite successully to break a guys teeth by bringing it up under the chin while bouncing one night. My wrist was fine.

    The next day, I was trying to demo the strike to my car passenger, as we were discussing the previus nights adventure. I barely tapped, and completely shattered, my windshield. My wrist was still fine, but the windscreen had to be replaced.

    $$,

    D.
     
  13. charyuop

    charyuop Black Belt

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    Sorry I didn't mention how it came out the discussion of that kinf of fist. There is a movement in the Tai Chi form called Single Whip. One of the applications is as follow...
    opponent punches with left hand (makes no difference, but I mention it so you can picture better) to your face. You reach out with your left hand to connect with the punch and lead it past your left side. As soon as his head is at reach (it is all one movement) your right hand hook shaped hits the left temple of the opponent. Since would be very hard to hit with a fist because the distance is right for your arm to be streight and not bent, hitting with the top wrist is the perfect solution.
     
  14. Brandon Fisher

    Brandon Fisher Master Black Belt

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    I tried to break a board tonight with Koken Uchi didn't get it and found out the board was cedar and not pine like I am used to. But one of my student did break it with the Koken Uchi. I will try on the video for the conditioning though.
     
  15. crushing

    crushing Grandmaster

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    I appreciate that very much.
     
  16. kidswarrior

    kidswarrior Senior Master

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    Actually, this is standard fare in the Shaolin Kempo I studied. Called oxjaw strike, and it definitely is with the end of the forearm bone, not the wrist (as flashlock said, fingertips are pinched together--as a crane's beak--and pointed away from strike). This is a powerful strike. Some good targets already mentioned, but there are many. I've found it's good to any soft target: abdomen and trunk (especially as you're stepping past /countering), even good as horizontal strike to arms, legs, and works well as, with bent elbow, you go up and quickly circle back down straight onto collar bone or shoulder (or nose, of course)--hard to block for boxer/street fighter types because they really aren't expecting a quick blow from above. If you get a chance to try this, let me know if it works as well for you.
     
  17. Ninjamom

    Ninjamom 2nd Black Belt

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    If it's the strike I'm thinking of, it would be 'kupin sonmok chigi' (bent wrist strike).

    We do a variation where the strike is into an open palm, as if you were holding a target (head/neck f'rinstance) in place with one hand, and bringing the strike into it. This is 'kupin sonmok pyojeok chigi', or bent wrist target strike
     
  18. charyuop

    charyuop Black Belt

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    I didn't think about mentioning the finger closed. I always figured the "hook" one of the main characteristics in Tai Chi. It is often used not only to strike, but also to connect. Sometimes hooking is better than grabbing coz it gives more quick options than a more static situation where you grab the wrist of the opponent. I didn't find any video of the application, but I have the pictures of the online classes of Tai Chi that got me close to the Art, before I found a Sifu near me.
    In the first one you can see the hook used to hit the arm pit, one of those considered the way to the heart, but can be used to other part of the body as well. In the second one you can see how the hook is used to connect to the opponent instead of the fist. That way you don't have to waste time to release the wrist if you need you hand (for example in case of another opponent coming from the other side, you have the hook ready to strike or the hand available to defend). In the third one you can better what I was talking about. Using the hook to redirect the opponent and while he/she lost the balance using the same hook to go back into the opponent and strike.

    http://www.gilmanstudio.com/OnLine_Class/Lesson08.htm
    http://www.gilmanstudio.com/OnLine_Class/Lesson34.htm
    http://www.gilmanstudio.com/OnLine_Class/Lesson65.htm

    Of course these are just few cases, coz as we all know application for kata/forms can be basically limitless.
     
  19. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    There are a few techs. in the Kenpo system that use this type of strike. My prefered targets are under the chin, back of the head/neck area, and side of the face/head. If I was going to do a groin strike, I think I'd lean more towards a palm rather than a bent wrist.

    Mike123
     

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