Stand up grappling applications in Isshin Ryu kata at 10:22

[TaiChiTJ]

At about 10:22 Javier Martinez shows applications commencing with finger and elbow locks. Interesting !! Towards the end a kata is performed as applications are shown. Anyone know if the kata is Seisan ?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

A lot going on here. First, yes, it's Seisan. Mostly. As is so often said in MA, not the way we do it. But oh well. It's recognizable.

Second, what you're seeing here is chart 3 from Shimabuku Soke's original teaching. Tuite is a good description.

You are also seeing some Oyo and some Omote bunkai. Typically done with one person doing a kata and an uke providing the attack that provokes the response.

Interesting video. Thanks for posting.

 

[Xue Sheng]

At about 10:22 Javier Martinez shows applications commencing with finger and elbow locks. Interesting !! Towards the end a kata is performed as applications are shown. Anyone know if the kata is Seisan ?

My taiji shifu did something like that to me once, but he did not take me down. He just moved around to wherever he wanted to put me

 

[punisher73]

A lot going on here. First, yes, it's Seisan. Mostly. As is so often said in MA, not the way we do it. But oh well. It's recognizable.

Second, what you're seeing here is chart 3 from Shimabuku Soke's original teaching. Tuite is a good description.

You are also seeing some Oyo and some Omote bunkai. Typically done with one person doing a kata and an uke providing the attack that provokes the response.

Interesting video. Thanks for posting.

Sensei Martinez is an interesting figure in regards to Isshin-Ryu. He took the katas (not including Sunsu) and tried to find their Chinese origins and how it would have been done "originally". In some areas, he "changed the kata" from what Shimabuku taught to accomodate his application interpretations. Also, Shimabuku did not have the elaborate "chin-na" techniques in his teachings, the hand grappling was much shorter and to the point (as evidenced by Shimabuku's '45 kumite techniques').

There are some in the IR world who really like Martinez's "reverse engineering" approach and many who say that it isn't IR anymore.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sensei Martinez is an interesting figure in regards to Isshin-Ryu. He took the katas (not including Sunsu) and tried to find their Chinese origins and how it would have been done "originally". In some areas, he "changed the kata" from what Shimabuku taught to accomodate his application interpretations. Also, Shimabuku did not have the elaborate "chin-na" techniques in his teachings, the hand grappling was much shorter and to the point (as evidenced by Shimabuku's '45 kumite techniques').

There are some in the IR world who really like Martinez's "reverse engineering" approach and many who say that it isn't IR anymore.

I'm not qualified to judge. My personal take on it is to not modify the kata from what Soke taught. Application is more of a blank slate.

 

[punisher73]

I'm not qualified to judge. My personal take on it is to not modify the kata from what Soke taught. Application is more of a blank slate.

Me either on judging. I am of the opinion that if you change what you do and it is no longer the same then change the name to distinguish it. For example, Martinez-Ha Isshin-Ryu, would designate that it is HIS version of Isshin-Ryu while paying respect and recognizing that it is very close to the parent style, or if enough changes have been made then make it your own and call it your own.

I agree with applications. I am of the belief that the movements have more than one application and the kata are a learning device to ingrain the movement itself and that they aren't locked in stone for applications. Originally, the movements didn't have specific names so it allowed the exploration of the multiple uses. If I call a movement a "block" now the application starts to become limited. If I change the movement to fit a specific application, then I might be losing the other information encoded into the movement.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Martinez Sensei's interpretation of IR katas is that most every technique is a joint lock. I applaud him for recognizing that the old katas were always more than just blocks and strikes (a fact lost to popular karate for many decades), although I agree with Punisher that his locks are more elaborate than the original Okinawan intention. That said, Martinez Sensei's joint locks seem well executed.

I agree with those of you who prefer that Soke's (meaning Tatsuo Shimabuku, not the several other IR "sokes") katas should not be modified. Doing so fractures the style. But that horse has left the barn. I think it's OK to slightly change a hand position to emphasize the oyo, but as I have expressed before - Use the applications that well fit the kata, don't change the kata to fit one's applications.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Use the applications that well fit the kata, don't change the kata to fit one's applications.

If you look at form from this angle, The form will always belong to the form creator and will never belong to you.

The form contains grammar. By using the grammar, you can create as many sentences as you like. A particular sentence is not important. How to use the grammar in that sentence is important.

If your form is "This is a book". You should be able to come up with:

- This is "not" a book.
- This is a "pen".
- "That" is a book.
- ...

 

[isshinryuronin]

If you look at form from this angle, The form will always belong to the form creator and will never belong to you.

The form contains grammar. By using the grammar, you can create as many sentences as you like. A particular sentence is not important. How to use the grammar in that sentence is important.

If your form is "This is a book". You should be able to come up with:

- This is "not" a book.
- This is a "pen".
- "That" is a book
- ...

Are you saying that 100 people can each customize a kata any way they like? Then the kata, and the style, will disappear. There would no longer be a Kusanku or Sanchin, just 10,000's of different katas.
In your example that "This is a book" can be changed to "This is not a book," or even "This is a pen", the grammar may be correct, but the meaning has changed!

The creators (I would venture understood more about MA than you and I) designed the katas for specific reasons. We can be true to the katas, yet still make them our own. We do that by keeping the original grammar and sentences, but change the pronunciation of the words, the accent, the cadence, inflection, and volume. Just as 10 actors can all read the same script, but give 10 unique renditions of it. They don't need to change the playwright's storyline to make the part their own.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you saying that 100 people can each customize a kata any way they like? Then the kata, and the style, will disappear.

If your form has a "front kick, straight punch" combo, can you change that combo into:

- front kick, uppercut,
- side kick, back fist,
- roundhouse kick, hook punch,
- hook kick, hammer fist,
- ...?

Also if your form has a "front kick, straight punch" combo, can you come up with

- How to counter it?
- How to counter those counters?
- ...

At what point of your life that you will start to involve with those tasks?

- After 5 years of your training?
- After 10 years of your training?
- After 20 years of your training?
- Never?

 

[Flying Crane]

Are you saying that 100 people can each customize a kata any way they like? Then the kata, and the style, will disappear. There would no longer be a Kusanku or Sanchin, just 10,000's of different katas.
In your example that "This is a book" can be changed to "This is not a book," or even "This is a pen", the grammar may be correct, but the meaning has changed!

The creators (I would venture understood more about MA than you and I) designed the katas for specific reasons. We can be true to the katas, yet still make them our own. We do that by keeping the original grammar and sentences, but change the pronunciation of the words, the accent, the cadence, inflection, and volume. Just as 10 actors can all read the same script, but give 10 unique renditions of it. They don't need to change the playwright's storyline to make the part their own.

The Chinese arts often have a more relaxed attitude about these things. Not always, but often.

And whether or not the founders and creators of the kata knew more about combat than we today, either collectively or individually, is very open to debate.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If your form has a "front kick, straight punch" combo, can you change that combo into:

- front kick, uppercut,
- side kick, back fist,
- roundhouse kick, hook punch,
- hook kick, hammer fist,
- ...?

Also if your form has a "front kick, straight punch" combo, can you come up with

- How to counter it?
- How to counter those counters?
- ...

At what point of your life that you will start to involve with those tasks?

- After 5 years of your training?
- After 10 years of your training?
- After 20 years of your training?
- Never?

This is all true - never intended to hint otherwise. One can adapt the kata techniques to meet a given situation, including counters. This is the beauty of kata. It is a template/tool box of self-defense moves from which one can draw from, and modify as needed. That said, once the adaptation is used/demonstrated, one returns to the template. In this way, the kata is passed on intact with all its potential variations still available for succeeding generations of practitioners to explore.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The Chinese arts often have a more relaxed attitude about these things. Not always, but often.

And whether or not the founders and creators of the kata knew more about combat than we today, either collectively or individually, is very open to debate.

As good a fighter as I imagine myself in my dreams, I don't think I would like to come up against the King of Ryukyu's personal bodyguard like Toudi Sakagawa (Kusanku's student) or, more recently, Motobu Choki. An MMA champ or SEAL would have a good chance against them, though.

I think there should be no doubt that these old karate masters were damn tough and many were skilled in pressure/vital point striking and joint locks. Additionally, many underwent body hardening (kotekitai) for many years. However, as much as we honor and idolize the Masters, we should not give them supernatural powers and acknowledge they were human.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As good a fighter as I imagine myself in my dreams, I don't think I would like to come up against the King of Ryukyu's personal bodyguard like Toudi Sakagawa (Kusanku's student) or, more recently, Motobu Choki. An MMA champ or SEAL would have a good chance against them, though.

If you just learn a form and then pass it down to the next generation, you are just a good copy machine. Even the best copy machine, after many generations, the quality will become worse and worse.

What can you do for not being just a copy machine? What contribution can you give to the MA if you don't add into your own knowledge?

Dragon has 9 sons. They all look different. One even looks like turtle.

 

[Flying Crane]

As good a fighter as I imagine myself in my dreams, I don't think I would like to come up against the King of Ryukyu's personal bodyguard like Toudi Sakagawa (Kusanku's student) or, more recently, Motobu Choki. An MMA champ or SEAL would have a good chance against them, though.

I think there should be no doubt that these old karate masters were damn tough and many were skilled in pressure/vital point striking and joint locks. Additionally, many underwent body hardening (kotekitai) for many years. However, as much as we honor and idolize the Masters, we should not give them supernatural powers and acknowledge they were human.

In our modern age of information technology and easy travel, we can access instruction in many different methods much much more easily than people could in 18th century Okinawa. We have access to much more information that we can learn from, we have the ability and the tools to research more thoroughly than before. I think people today have the definite potential to be more knowledgeable and more skilled than people of the past, with some limitations.

I personally do not hold myself out to be one of those people.

That being said, nothing that we practice now, based on older methods, was handed down from the gods in a state of perfection. It was all devised by people, and they had the same shortcomings and failures that people today have. They too made mistakes, or did things one way that could have been done better another way. None of it is sacred. It can all be changed, either minorly or majorly.

I personally do not believe that anything today is being done exactly as it was first created, if it has been passed along for more than one generation. Even then, I doubt it. People are different, they will understand things differently from each other, even if only a little bit differently. Already, it is different.

People do things to the best of their understanding. This can cause it to be different from their teachers, even if they BELIEVE it to be the same. The next generation of teachers teach to the best of their ability. That ability is not identical to their own teachers. Again, this leads to differences.

I think it is a myth to believe that any system or kata or whatever has remained completely true to that created by the founder, regardless of intentions. But this does not mean that it is not still the same system.

As long as the intention is to maintain the same high level of integrity and quality, then it is still the same system, even though it changes, and even if some changes are deliberate.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And whether or not the founders and creators of the kata knew more about combat than we today, either collectively or individually, is very open to debate.

It's not a matter of debate. I study a style of martial arts that has a founder and a name. I practice it the way it was taught by the founder. That subject is not open to debate. Whether or not anyone wants to think they have a better way of doing things is for them to decide. It's not of interest to me.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If you just learn a form and then pass it down to the next generation, you are just a good copy machine.

When you become my sensei, you can tell me what and how I should study and practice Isshinryu. Since you are not my sensei, you cannot. You are free to have your own opinions about me, my style, or how things ought to be done. But I don't care what your opinions are about that subject, and mean that in the nicest possible way.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's not a matter of debate. I study a style of martial arts that has a founder and a name. I practice it the way it was taught by the founder. That subject is not open to debate. Whether or not anyone wants to think they have a better way of doing things is for them to decide. It's not of interest to me.

You are of course welcome to practice it to be best of your ability. That is all any of us can do.

 

[drop bear]

As good a fighter as I imagine myself in my dreams, I don't think I would like to come up against the King of Ryukyu's personal bodyguard like Toudi Sakagawa (Kusanku's student) or, more recently, Motobu Choki. An MMA champ or SEAL would have a good chance against them, though.

I think there should be no doubt that these old karate masters were damn tough and many were skilled in pressure/vital point striking and joint locks. Additionally, many underwent body hardening (kotekitai) for many years. However, as much as we honor and idolize the Masters, we should not give them supernatural powers and acknowledge they were human.

Yeah. That pretty much.

It is an imitation verses innovation debate. Rather than any sort of attack.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Me either on judging. I am of the opinion that if you change what you do and it is no longer the same then change the name to distinguish it. For example, Martinez-Ha Isshin-Ryu, would designate that it is HIS version of Isshin-Ryu while paying respect and recognizing that it is very close to the parent style, or if enough changes have been made then make it your own and call it your own.

I agree with applications. I am of the belief that the movements have more than one application and the kata are a learning device to ingrain the movement itself and that they aren't locked in stone for applications. Originally, the movements didn't have specific names so it allowed the exploration of the multiple uses. If I call a movement a "block" now the application starts to become limited. If I change the movement to fit a specific application, then I might be losing the other information encoded into the movement.

I think a lot of people don't do that, themselves (the renaming). The reason it gets the person's last name is that others refer to it that way. Doing that with your own name feels presumptuous, I think. In fact, I think there's a bit of humility in not renaming something, whether that's appropriate or not. The name you proposed is essentially saying "Martinez's Isshin-Ryu", which is probably how a lot of folks refer to it today. At some point, the " 's" possessive may drop off, and folks may just refer to it as "Martinez Isshin-Ryu". Probably won't be what he calls it, though.