Sport TKD( Integrity,Respect)

[terryl965]

Has the sport ruined this aspect of Tae Kwon Do? Have the instructors forgot about what the true meaning of TKD is? How is it the tenets seem to be just words for most? These our question that should be looked at by all people involved in TKD and there students. I remember when people actually bow to there instructors instead od a simple qeusture. I can remember believing in the tenets and the value that they brought to each and everyone of us. Does anybody else feels this slipping away?

 

[d1jinx]

e-YUP.

 

[Taekwondo14]

I'm 14 and my instructor gives me push ups if i dont bow to him/the mats on my way in and out. So i never forget anyymore. Plus i have alot of respect to him for teaching me the ways of taekwondo

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Has the sport ruined this aspect of Tae Kwon Do? Have the instructors forgot about what the true meaning of TKD is? How is it the tenets seem to be just words for most? These our question that should be looked at by all people involved in TKD and there students. I remember when people actually bow to there instructors instead od a simple qeusture. I can remember believing in the tenets and the value that they brought to each and everyone of us. Does anybody else feels this slipping away?

Hi Terry,

Well, I'm the SD guy which means by default I'm also the anti-sport guy I suppose. I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing the sport MAist or the hobbyist or the 'finding my inner self' or whatever, but I can only speak for myself and how I personally feel. So with that said, hopefully I'll avoid stepping on toes but if I can't then so be it...

Sport has ruined TKD. There, I said it. Sport has really screwed up a lot of arts. When a MARTIAL art is studied for its intended purpose i.e. using physical techniques and principles to avoid being a victim (call it self defense, personal protection, offensive defense or whatever) it is a highly personal and private thing. The bond between an instructor and a student seemed to be much stronger because there wasn't cookie-cutter commercialism getting in the way. Martial arts weren't meant to be a business.

Sport training directly implies competition. Competition directly leads to the problems we see now; people getting into pissing matches or physical altercations at tournaments. People fighting each other for a trophy, a ribbon, money or the next belt promotion. And worse yet, we put kids against kids for the same thing. This is going to piss people off but so be it....putting kids against kids is sick and perverse and both the instructors and parents that do and allow it should be arrested for child abuse. Yep, I said it. Yep, I went down that road. Yeah, I know someone will come back with 'then we should ban peewee football and soccer' since kids get hurt there as well. Well here is the deal, football and baseball and soccer were designed to be sports. Martial arts were NOT. Martial arts were designed to hurt someone or allow you to do something to avoid being hurt. How many kids, teens or adults have been hurt for the sake of a trophy, ribbon, money or belt promotion? How many knees have been blown out? How many people have died? Yeah, I know someone will come back with 'the rate of injuries is very low'. Well how many children getting hurt punching a kicking each other is acceptable? I always though MA's were for defense only? Hey, if a couple of adults want to try to knock each other out for a prize then go for it. But let's all be just a little honest for a second; TKD particularly is famous, or infamous for being kiddie-karate and the kids and comps keep the doors open. Hell, we've had certain people here brag about TKD owners driving their BMW's and laughing all the way to the bank. That is commercialism and it has ruined the art of TKD. If it taught discipline and self control you wouldn't have fights at tournys. You wouldn't have people kicking or punching the refs because they didn't like the call. You wouldn't have people over-charging for a piece of paper that only cost about a buck to print. You wouldn't have people 'laughing all the way to the bank'. You wouldn't have huge greedy organizations, politics and people messing with the money.

My very first instructor said something I'll never forget, 'the only time some stranger should know that you study Karate is when they turn out to be an attacker and when they wake up in the hospital the next day'. It isn't about a trophy. It isn't about a ribbon. It isn't about money. It isn't about a promotion.

At least it wasn't originally.

That is my two cents and it isn't going to change. YMMV.

 

[Markku P]

Has the sport ruined this aspect of Tae Kwon Do?

I don't think so. it's nothing to do if it's "sport" or "martial arts". It's instructor'sresponsibility to teach correct values. I have met many instructors from other sports and they have been a great role models for the kids. On the other side, I have met "martial arts" instructors to whom I wouldn't trust my kids to train. ( there is always some bad apples..)

/Markku P.

 

[Cyriacus]

I don't think so. it's nothing to do if it's "sport" or "martial arts". It's instructor'sresponsibility to teach correct values. I have met many instructors from other sports and they have been a great role models for the kids. On the other side, I have met "martial arts" instructors to whom I wouldn't trust my kids to train. ( there is always some bad apples..)

/Markku P.

Pretty much this.

Sure, the Sport side would create a Competitive air, but if Respect was a heavier focus, people would accept their losses and learn from them.

 

[puunui]

Has the sport ruined this aspect of Tae Kwon Do?

no.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Yes. The lack of "real" punishments for people doing the wrong thing is just ridiculous. As i said in another thread, if you were to assault another competitor in almost an other sport it would be a life ban no question. Im sick and tired of hearing tkd being referred to as "the sport where the guy kicked the referee".

 

[StudentCarl]

Not even close. Thinking that the behavior of a small sample represents the big picture is simply wrong. Sports are an excellent arena to learn how to act, partly because they are challenging. It's not the silent majority that makes the news, it's the occasional idiot. And those who think that idiot is representative of the group don't have all their batteries connected. If someone believes this kind of thing is normal, they may be seeing too much of it themselves and need to start by cleaning up at their own school. Each of us is either part of the problem or part of the solution/prevention. But don't buy the idea that one idiot represents us; he sure doesn't represent me or the people I train with.

 

[puunui]

Not even close. Thinking that the behavior of a small sample represents the big picture is simply wrong. Sports are an excellent arena to learn how to act, partly because they are challenging. It's not the silent majority that makes the news, it's the occasional idiot. And those who think that idiot is representative of the group don't have all their batteries connected. If someone believes this kind of thing is normal, they may be seeing too much of it themselves and need to start by cleaning up at their own school. Each of us is either part of the problem or part of the solution/prevention. But don't buy the idea that one idiot represents us; he sure doesn't represent me or the people I train with.

I come from a politically active extended family. One of my aunts was appointed as the Chair of the Honolulu Police Department's Police Commission. She held that position for I think 10 or more years when we were growing up. They gave her a badge (001) and thing for her car identifying who she was. I asked her what her job entailed (thinking she was Commissioner Gordon in Batman) and she said that one of the main things that she did was to investigate police misconduct complaints. the complaints ranged from alleged rude behavior by officers at traffic stops, assaults on suspects being arrested, and other more serious offenses. She said for example, she would compare what was written in the police report to the statement of the allegedly assaulted suspect, their prior record, their medical reports and photos, etc. There were other accusations of embezzlement and they would look at the house or the new car that the officer could not afford on his meager salary.

At age ten or eleven, I asked her if all police were dirty, and her response has stuck with me all these years. She said that while it was her job to investigate police officers, they like any other citizen are presumed innocent until proven guilty, that our Constitution requires that we, as American citizens, give everyone the benefit of the doubt unless and until proven otherwise. She said that it was her job to look at all of the evidence and not make a decision based on one sided information. Certain evidence is more compelling than others, but in the end we are talking about an actual person with an actual life and what she did would affect not only the officer in question, but the officer's family as well as the complaintant. She said that she did find that certain officers had committed wrongdoings, and that when they discovered that, they tried to improve the policies and procedures such that those types of situations would or could be prevented in the future. The goal, from her policy making perspective, was that there should be an equitable and fair solution, for both the officers and the public. However, she also cautioned me about jumping to conclusions about entire groups based on the behavior of a few, that one bad apple does not spoil the entire barrel. She said that saying all police are bad based on the activities of a few would be the same as racial discrimination, hating someone based on their characteristic, rather than who they were, as an individual. Saying "all police are bad", to her, was the same as saying "all blacks/whites/etc. are bad" something that we as educated and civilized people did not do.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Not even close. Thinking that the behavior of a small sample represents the big picture is simply wrong. Sports are an excellent arena to learn how to act, partly because they are challenging. It's not the silent majority that makes the news, it's the occasional idiot. And those who think that idiot is representative of the group don't have all their batteries connected. If someone believes this kind of thing is normal, they may be seeing too much of it themselves and need to start by cleaning up at their own school. Each of us is either part of the problem or part of the solution/prevention. But don't buy the idea that one idiot represents us; he sure doesn't represent me or the people I train with.

I really hope that is the case. I dont do sport tkd and have never been to a tkd event. I just keep hearing here that there is a lot of bad sportsmanship at these events in general, and its a topic that is getting more and more attention, so I assumed if it was just a "one off" here and there that it wouldnt be brought up as an issue. I must say, however, that kicking the ref at the olympics was disgraceful and Id like to know in the history of the olympics how many times an official has been assaulted right there for all to see. I would also like to know in junior sports how often a competitor assaults another competitor after the event. And how often a coach comes onto the field of play and assaults his student's opponent in other sports. I am not so much worried about these individual misdemeanors but what more curious as to the punishments dished out. If the coach I just mentioned is ever allowed anywhere near another tkd event in his life then the punishments are too lenient. Likewise the competitor who assaulted his opponent recently, if he ever so much as walks through the door of another tkd event then they simply have too lenient punishments in my opinion, because I know for a fact that if you did that in almost any other sport I can think of you would never compete, coach or even spectate at that sport ever again.

 

[Rumy73]

Although they are not entirely incompatible, martial arts and sports ultimately have different agendas. Sports are about winning; martial arts are about one's journey to mastery emotions and his/her body. One is outward and the other inner. That is why the sport side of TKD has no appeal for me. The aggressive, negativity that comes with sporting events cannot be denied. In our society, winning is paramount and sportsmanship is secondary, if that at all. I have been to a my fair share of TKD competitions and was less than pleased by the behavior I witnessed, especially that of parents -- and many competitors. While some may wish to lay the blame for problems related to TKD tournaments on Sabums (some blame is deserved), students and parents must take responsibility for their own behavoir. However, when winning is a mitigating factor for irresponsibility, we can expect little to change. The trophy chase will continue.

A martial artist cares not for such material things. I started TKD in order to improve myself as a person. This is one of the chief tenets of any martial art. My eyes are on the prize: enjoying the journey of growth, development and self discipline. I do this without fanfare and the need for outside approval.

Has the sport ruined this aspect of Tae Kwon Do? Have the instructors forgot about what the true meaning of TKD is? How is it the tenets seem to be just words for most? These our question that should be looked at by all people involved in TKD and there students. I remember when people actually bow to there instructors instead od a simple qeusture. I can remember believing in the tenets and the value that they brought to each and everyone of us. Does anybody else feels this slipping away?

 

[Markku P]

Sports are an excellent arena to learn how to act, partly because they are challenging.

I agree with this. I would also ad that a person under the pressure will show his/her true colors ( self discipline, respect, compassion etc. )

/Markku P.

 

[Manny]

Has the sport ruined this aspect of Tae Kwon Do? Have the instructors forgot about what the true meaning of TKD is? How is it the tenets seem to be just words for most? These our question that should be looked at by all people involved in TKD and there students. I remember when people actually bow to there instructors instead od a simple qeusture. I can remember believing in the tenets and the value that they brought to each and everyone of us. Does anybody else feels this slipping away?

I don't think so, in my dojang and ex dojang the students still bows at the sambonim and bows before and afther leaving the mat and bow to the flags (kuki) in a respectful way, the sambonim always talk to us with respect and we always call him sambonim or profesor or master, when I need sambonims asistance or when I want to talk to him I always bow before the chat. The kids alwasy bow at me when they say hello or when they want to chat to me or when they need something.

Manny

 

[miguksaram]

My question is this...since people are jumping on the thought of bad apples in the sport is causing the sport to ruin TKD. Can we just say that sports in general is ruining our society? If we are going to base opinions based on some dips#!+, sore @$$ loser kid kicking another kid in the face as an argument that sport is killing TKD, then isn't fair to say that baseball has ruining our society when we have athletes who took drugs and then lied to the senate about it? Can we not say that football is tearing down the moral fabric of the population because Michael Vick was a participant in dog fighting?

Perhaps the banning of sports all together is the key. If we are going to say that sport is ruining martial arts, then we would have to hold that true for everything.

 

[jthomas1600]

I'd say no it has not ruined the sport. But I want to touch on something someone else said here. Someone commented about the couch's responsibility to teach the competitors. I agree with this, but I think more importantly the parents are responsible and are usually the ones falling down on the job. And this is a sports issue in general, not just a TKD thing. I've got four kids...the youngest is 12 and the oldest is 22. They've all participated in a variety of sports--especially when they were younger. I've been to a few games.... t-ball, baseball, soccer, basketball, football, wrestling tournaments etc. And it never fails, no matter how young the kids are and how much it's a "just for fun league" you've always got a few parents who think they're kid is the next Michael Jordan or something. Always have a few parents yelling at the kids, yelling at the refs, yelling at the coaches, yelling at each other...treating the whole thing like their child's future sports hero status is dependent upon this game and it's the most important thing in the world. Let kids be kids for petes sake.

 

[Manny]

I have mixed feelings about sport tkd, tkd competition is good, it helps to develop timing,technike,disipline,sportmanship and to pursue a goal, winning quite simple and winning is good. However I don't like to compete, never liked I think competition is not for everyone, I lke to use my tkd defensesively, this is I know how to use it but I hope never have to use it, rember old Miyagi in the movie Karate Kid... Karate rule #1.-Karate is only for defense... Karate rule #2.... Learn karate rule #1.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

Manny, not to single you out, but your comment about preferring self-defense training to competition raises the underlying issue: self-control. If you are attacked, you are in a competition, though I'll agree the rules are different. You are competing for your safety and maybe your life. But just because someone throws a punch at you in anger doesn't automatically justify you killing him either. As you know, much of martial art training is about violent action with self-control. Self-control is developed with some pressure, not in the comfort of your bathtub at home. If anyone trains technique without training self-control, then I suggest they train with a recklessly irresponsible instructor (I won't even use the term 'master' here). People who get violent at sports events are a danger elsewhere too. As far as those who wonder about other sports, soccer/futbol has violence at many ages and levels, by players, fans and parents. Baseball? How many managers get ejected? How about the Dodger fan who was nearly killed? I think incidents like the one at US Junior Olympics (and others) just highlight how vital it is for us to teach self-control. I know it's outside TKD, but I just finished GM Funakoshi's biography "Karate: My Way of Life". It's full of stories of self-control and restraint. We have no business teaching technique without self-control, but sport is one (not the only) positive way to pressure test self-control and to coach it. Masters and coaches must coach self-control along with technique at tournaments. How can it be otherwise?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Masters and coaches must coach self-control along with technique at tournaments. How can it be otherwise?

Okay, this is a valid statement. Does it mean though that the 'rubber' of commercialism needs to meet the 'road' of responsibility as well? Let me put it another way; It wasn't all that long ago that a perspective student had to demonstrate the correct attitude to earn the right to train in a Dojo/Dojang. If they didn't they were shown the door. The damage done by commercialism however is to get as many students in as possible so that we have a good return per square yard of floor space. Gyms do the same thing. This is where quantity has trumped quality. It should be the other way around. But I would wonder if all of these 'bad apples' come from cookie-cutter McDojangs that are more interested in the bottom line than well-disciplined students. Perhaps trace it back to the source and find out what type of school allowed the 'bad apple' to reach the level in question.

 

[Manny]

Manny, not to single you out, but your comment about preferring self-defense training to competition raises the underlying issue: self-control. If you are attacked, you are in a competition, though I'll agree the rules are different. You are competing for your safety and maybe your life. But just because someone throws a punch at you in anger doesn't automatically justify you killing him either. As you know, much of martial art training is about violent action with self-control. Self-control is developed with some pressure, not in the comfort of your bathtub at home. If anyone trains technique without training self-control, then I suggest they train with a recklessly irresponsible instructor (I won't even use the term 'master' here). People who get violent at sports events are a danger elsewhere too. As far as those who wonder about other sports, soccer/futbol has violence at many ages and levels, by players, fans and parents. Baseball? How many managers get ejected? How about the Dodger fan who was nearly killed? I think incidents like the one at US Junior Olympics (and others) just highlight how vital it is for us to teach self-control. I know it's outside TKD, but I just finished GM Funakoshi's biography "Karate: My Way of Life". It's full of stories of self-control and restraint. We have no business teaching technique without self-control, but sport is one (not the only) positive way to pressure test self-control and to coach it. Masters and coaches must coach self-control along with technique at tournaments. How can it be otherwise?

Youa are right, not becaue a punk send you a fist to the your nose you have to chop his trachea, but instead you can deflect the punch and palm strike him right in the nose and try to end the fight.

Can you imagine if I teach self defense without control? very simple my students would get hurt, I use to perform karate chops to the neck and troat even elbos to the temple but all my technikes inside dojan are with control, even my low kicks aimed to testicles are full speed they never hurt my pupils, I don't need to break a knee cap to show how a low kick can discapacitate a bag guy.

This kind of control must be taught to the competitors too, self control and respect for the others is the key even at tournaments. I have been center judge in very hot fights wrere the people even shout bad words to me because they felt I were partial to the other competitor, and sometimes I just feel I need to stop the fight and respond the these bad people (parents or coaches) but I stop and concentrate on the fight and try to not listen this is self control.

Comepiting and teaching self defense without control is a bad thing.

Manny