Spiritual Explorers in the Art of Peace

[JowGaWolf]

Just trying to show that to punch on your opponent to break a grip is not necessary.

If you pin your opponent's arm on your chest, you have just obtained a free contact point. It will be to your advantage.

Here is an example that your opponent's collar grip can be your free contact point.

is he pulling down on the elbow in this video. Pulling with his left hand using his waist to generate the energy for the pull? Looking at the video I can see what I was doing wrong when I tried it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

is he pulling down on the elbow in this video. Pulling with his left hand using his waist to generate the energy for the pull? Looking at the video I can see what I was doing wrong when I tried it.

When you pull down your opponent's collar grip arm, you also pull your opponent's body closer to you.

In wresting, when you opponent gets an upper collar hold and also an arm control, he may spin his body and tries to throw you. You spin your body with him at the same time.

Is this also Aiki principle?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Never chase after opponents.

Sound advice. If they are moving away from you, they pose no danger so why expend energy chasing them down? Also, if you chase, there's a good chance you are being led.

“In the art of peace, a single cut of the sword summons up the wondrous powers of the universe. That one sword links the past, present, and future; it absorbs the universe. Time and space disappear. All of creation, from the distant past to the present moment, lives in the sword. All human existence flourishes right here in the sword you hold in your hands.

I like this quote. In iai, many cuts are done with one purpose - to kill. At the same time, you are at risk of being killed yourself - the shinken sword was not designed for sport or fancy "fencing." The moment of the cut holds life and death. Mind, body and spirit unite in the acceptance of either result.

The first sequence of pictures shows Ueshiba striking uke 's face with his right hand

I think gentleness is only for students and was not intended for the person that is trying to do you bodily harm.

I think most accept these examples were indicative of early aiki-do and common in aiki-jitsu. Control is good, but only temporary as long as one keeps pressure on. Sometimes, this is enough. But to end a serious fight there needs to be some definitive ending. Many of aikido's redirections have the potential to cause joint damage when whipped with a little rotation. Damage can also be caused by many of the takedowns, especially the linear ones that can drive the opponent into the ground.

But like with karate, over time, form often becomes the goal rather than combat function.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Never chase after opponents. ... In the art of peace ...

What if someone runs away with your 3 months baby in his arm?

It's very easy to talk about peace when there are only 2 persons get involved. You want to fight me. I don't want to fight you. I run away. It's a easy to achieve peace.

If the 3rd person (your family member or your loved one) also gets involved, only to consider your own safety is not enough. Unfortunately, most people try to avoid talking about this situation and I don't understand why.

A: Can there be a peace between us?
B: Peace ... No peace ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

But like with karate, over time, form often becomes the goal rather than combat function.

The good news is that everyone isn't the same so the few that care about function will hopefully continue to pass the knowledge.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What if someone runs away with your 3 months baby in his arm?

It's very easy to talk about peace when there are only 2 persons get involved. You want to fight me. I don't want to fight you. I run away. It's a easy to achieve peace.

If the 3rd person (your family member or your loved one) also gets involved, only to consider your own safety is not enough. Unfortunately, most people try to avoid talking about this situation and I don't understand why.

A: Can there be a peace between us?
B: Peace ... No peace ...

Seriously.... you are completely missing the point of the quote

What if rabid wolves grab your dog and run off with him. What if a gorilla steels your car keys.....what if.....come on

 

[JowGaWolf]

What if someone runs away with your 3 months baby in his arm?

It's very easy to talk about peace when there are only 2 persons get involved. You want to fight me. I don't want to fight you. I run away. It's a easy to achieve peace.

If the 3rd person (your family member or your loved one) also gets involved, only to consider your own safety is not enough. Unfortunately, most people try to avoid talking about this situation and I don't understand why.

A: Can there be a peace between us?
B: Peace ... No peace ...

I took "Never chase after opponents" to mean never chase the technique that you are trying to do. It made more sense to me that way from a functional perspective.

For example. This is how I read the quote and I'm using what I read about the founder seeing his dad being attacked to put things in that context.
In Aikido we never attack (never start fights.) If someone took my child, then I would have already been attacked through that action. If someone invades your house, and hits your wife but not you. You are still under attack. If someone attacks your country, but not you didirectly, when you are still under attack.

Never run away from any kind of challenge. - This to me extends beyond fighting. To me this simple means don't give up. Anything that doesn't come easy is a challenge. If someone took your child, then that is the challenge. Don't run away. If someone wanted you to fight then that's the challenge. Don't run away. It doesn't mean that you have to fight, but you shouldn't run away.

Do not try to suppress or control an opponent uunaturally This means don't try to force the technique. Which makes sense because the next sentence is "Let attackers come any way they like and blend with them." So If someone attacks me. I should use the technique that works against the attack. If someone defends against me, then I should use the technique that works against the defense. To bring up Rokas again. If my opponent is defending my attempt to grab his wrist, then I should grab or strike where he's not defending. I should not force the Wrist grab. "Never chase opponents" I take this simply to mean that I shouldn't chase my opponent with a technique. When we watch Rokas, it looks like he's chasing his opponent with the wrist grab. Even when I give chase to an opponent, it should not look like I'm chasing. If I'm advancing on an opponent, then I should be overwhelming that opponent.

Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it simply means attack off the center line. When an attack comes to you step off your opponent's line off attack, then attack.

None of that quote makes sense to me if the goal is peace (non-violent)

“In Aikido we never attack. An attack is proof that one is out of control. Never run away from any kind of challenge, but do not try to suppress or control an opponent unnaturally. Let attackers come any way they like and then blend with them. Never chase after opponents. Redirect each attack and get firmly behind it.”

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Aikido we never attack (never start fights.)

Does this apply to all MA systems?

Which MA system encourage people to start a fight (not talking about tournament here).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What if rabid wolves grab your dog and run off with him. What if a gorilla steels your car keys.....what if.....come on

One time I did chase a raccoon and saved one of my chickens from its mouth. I had to spend a lot of time to calm down my chicken afterward.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Does this apply to all MA systems?

Which MA system encourage people to start a fight (not talking about tournament here).

It's more about human behavior than the school. Students are reminded in hopes that moral value will be a part of who they are. But we are all humans and criminals can take martial arts too. Think about martial arts teachers who molest children or abuse students. All it takes to be a bad guy is a bad decision or uncontrolled emotions.

I hope I'm not the only one who strives to be a better version of myself.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One time I did chase a raccoon and saved one of my chickens from its mouth. I had to spend a lot of time to calm down my chicken afterward.

There are a lot of people in the world who have said "I didn't think it would happen to me"

The thing about peace is that people often go to war or die to obtain it. This is the reality of peace which. I also don't believe in non-violence because it requires every one to be non-violent. Even if one group is peaceful, it doesn't mean the other group will be peaceful.

Peace can also be found in violence. When I spar, I drop allow my stress and worries. I am at peace and living in the moment.

Peace can mean different things and obtained in different ways. If I fight then I would want my mind to be at peace and not burdened.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I hope I'm not the only one who strives to be a better version of myself. ... Peace can also be found in violence.

I have 2 CMA teachers. My

- long fist teacher always talks about Wu-De (MA spirit).
- Chinese wrestling teacher always talks about combat.

Is my long fist teacher a better person than my Chinese wrestling teacher?

Also, I have never talked about de-escalation, run away, patient, inner-peace, world peace, new world order, ... Am I a bad person?

To die in the battlefield for your country, or to die for the human being (if alien attack on earth) is the true "peace".

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have 2 CMA teachers. My

- long fist teacher always talks about Wu-De (MA spirit).
- Chinese wrestling teacher always talks about combat.

Is my long fist teacher a better person than my Chinese wrestling teacher?

Also, I have never talked about de-escalation, patient, inner-peace, world peace, new world order, ... Am I a bad person?

This is why you should strive to be a better version of yourself. You must determine what makes you better. What makes your teachers better may not make you better.

It doesn't matter which teacher is a better person because you should focus on what makes you better and not what makes them better.

Being a better version of who you are is not the same as being a better person. A better person is determined by others. Just like you asked which teacher is the better person.

A better version of yourself is determined only by you.

You can be very nice. That may make you a better person for others but may bring you misery and depression as people may try to take advantage of you. So being less nice may make you a better person. Either way. You determine what will make you better and not others.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

The first sequence of pictures shows Ueshiba striking uke 's face with his right hand, then applying ikkyo to the parrying arm. This is in line with the technical instructions in "Aikido Maki-no-ichi" and "Budo", two technical manuals drafted with Ueshiba's approval. It is still practiced that way in lineages such as Yoshinkan and Iwama. It is also in direct opposition with the quote "in aikido we never attack".

See the following interview and article:

Budoka no Kotae - Talking to Morihiro Saito Sensei, Part 2 - Aikido Sangenkai Blog

Part 2 of the English translation of an interview with Morihiro Saito, a direct student of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba and guardian of the Aiki Shrine.

www.aikidosangenkai.org

The Origins of Modern Aikido: The Shomenuchi Dilemma by Stanley Pranin – Aikido Journal

aikidojournal.com

And, once again, why all the sass?

The information in the following links will give you a more nuanced perspective on the whole topic:

There Is No First Strike in Karate - Karate Philosophy

"Karate ni sente nashi" or "There is no first strike in karate" is the second of the 20 precepts that Gichin Funakoshi wrote to guide his students in the development of both spiritual and technical aspects of their karate. What does "karate ni sente nashi" mean? "Karate ni sente nashi" (空手に先手なし)...

www.karatephilosophy.com

No First Attack in Karate? | Iain Abernethy

iainabernethy.co.uk

 

[Buka]

Seriously.... you are completely missing the point of the quote

What if rabid wolves grab your dog and run off with him. What if a gorilla steels your car keys.....what if.....come on

I understand your point, and agree. But, strictly for fun.....

If rabid wolves were to grab my dog and run off with him (her, in my case) my next thought would be - how far away from the bodies of filleted rabid wolves would be considered safe, infection wise, for First Responders?
Mess with a man's dog at your own risk, even if you're a rabid wolf.


As for the gorilla...you go, Kong, you ain't got no argument from me, I don't do gorillas..

 

[O'Malley]

When I see things like this, I can't help but remember what Gerry stated earlier about Aikido "that it's more of a "finishing system" and that the foundations of striking are learned elsewhere. The teacher is definitely strikingly informed.

I had a good laugh at that punch. He nailed it. The student enjoyed it too. That's what learning is all about. I miss that type of interaction with a teacher.

The problem with that statement is that Ueshiba himself had little martial experience aside from the daito ryu he later taught as aikido. Don't know about the teacher in the video though.

When your opponent has grips on you, if you try to punch him, he can shake (a quick pull and push) you and disable your punch. When you are thinking about punch him, your opponent already thinks about taking you down. He is 1 step ahead of you.

It seems to me that Chinese wrestling may suit better for the "Art of Peace". You don't need to punch at your opponent to break an upper collar grip.

肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing:



If your opponent refuses to release his grip, just 1 more circle will do the job.



崩(Beng) - Cracking:

These look cool and effective, and I agree that the opponent will try to use his grip to affect your balance.

Just trying to show that to punch on your opponent to break a grip is not necessary.

If you pin your opponent's arm on your chest, you have just obtained a free contact point. It will be to your advantage.

Here is an example that your opponent's collar grip can be your free contact point.

I've also been taught the same idea:

When you pull down your opponent's collar grip arm, you also pull your opponent's body closer to you.

In wresting, when you opponent gets an upper collar hold and also an arm control, he may spin his body and tries to throw you. You spin your body with him at the same time.

Is this also Aiki principle?

It makes sense to me, although I've never practiced that particular technique.

Sound advice. If they are moving away from you, they pose no danger so why expend energy chasing them down? Also, if you chase, there's a good chance you are being led.

The quote is from "Budo" by John Stevens, so there might be something lost in translation. Stevens has translated "stance open in six directions (north, south, east, west, up, down)" by "flexible stance with a 60 degree feet angle". From what I know, this could also mean that one should focus on moving with proper structure instead of trying to do stuff to the other guy, because when you chase him your movement tends to overcommit to one direction (instead of balancing six) and it can be countered. But who knows.

I took "Never chase after opponents" to mean never chase the technique that you are trying to do. It made more sense to me that way from a functional perspective.

That's kind of close to the idea. A key concept is "takemusu aiki" which roughly means that if you move correctly (i.e. with the proper balance of forces within your body) you'll unbalance the opponent upon contact and then if you keep moving that way it will become a technique.

Do not try to suppress or control an opponent uunaturally This means don't try to force the technique. Which makes sense because the next sentence is "Let attackers come any way they like and blend with them." So If someone attacks me. I should use the technique that works against the attack. If someone defends against me, then I should use the technique that works against the defense. To bring up Rokas again. If my opponent is defending my attempt to grab his wrist, then I should grab or strike where he's not defending. I should not force the Wrist grab. "Never chase opponents" I take this simply to mean that I shouldn't chase my opponent with a technique. When we watch Rokas, it looks like he's chasing his opponent with the wrist grab. Even when I give chase to an opponent, it should not look like I'm chasing. If I'm advancing on an opponent, then I should be overwhelming that opponent.

I think that these are just reiterations of the "takemusu aiki" concept above. "Blending" is a bad concept to understand aiki (it would be way better suited for judo). You don't technically blend, you reproduce the cosmic balance of yin and yang within your body ("I am the universe" yada yada) and then upon contact the opponent can't apply his strength to you:

 

[Xue Sheng]

I understand your point, and agree. But, strictly for fun.....

If rabid wolves were to grab my dog and run off with him (her, in my case) my next thought would be - how far away from the bodies of filleted rabid wolves would be considered safe, infection wise, for First Responders?
Mess with a man's dog at your own risk, even if you're a rabid wolf.


As for the gorilla...you go, Kong, you ain't got no argument from me, I don't do gorillas..

I use to know an Environmental Conservation officer who told me about his rule of thumb for chemical spills and all such nastiness....

If he can't hold his thumb up, in front of his face, and cover the entire scene....he's to close

And I completely agree with you on the Gorilla

 

[Taiji Rebel]

 

[Buka]

I use to know an Environmental Conservation officer who told me about his rule of thumb for chemical spills and all such nastiness....

If he can't hold his thumb up, in front of his face, and cover the entire scene....he's to close

And I completely agree with you on the Gorilla

Chemical spills are a pain to deal with. Used to deal with jet fuel spills a lot, (stunk like crazy) some other spills that I don't remember the names of, and the occasional spills of unknown substances that we monitored until the environmental guys in the space suits came.

Yeah, I don't miss any of that.