Bujingodai
Black Belt
We do spontaneous self defense and non compliant sessions. Some technique doesn't lend well to sparring. We do as well as we can.
Sparring is Dead
- Thread starter Gyakuto
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To an extent, that's true. But there are definitely folks who've spent time fighting, without any formal training. They usually have a pretty good idea how good they are, and can be far more problematic than a lightly trained person.
Agreed. There's definitely stuff I don't consider safe enough to do in any high-energy, non-compliant context without significant risk of injury. Even if it's a fairly minor injury (sprained finger) it's a setback for training and can interfere with their work, so worth limiting that risk as much as possible/appropriate.
I think you learn skills by starting with drills, then the counters etc, then the adaptions to those counters
Then you move up the spectrum from a drill to intense specific sparring (ie try and apply the specific technique from the specific scenario against someone who knows what you're trying to do and has some skill to prevent it). Once the scenario changes, stop and start again
This kind of specific sparring is quite playful actually because there is less ego, you're just training with many reps
This forms the majority of our training at my BJJ academy
I do believe you also need to train free sparring, but again most of the time this should be on a spectrum and focused on more on skill development than winning per se
And you also need to do just enough hard core competitive sparring so you learn how to deal with that kind of intensity. I do believe that too much of this kind of training makes you tough, but isn't conducive to broad skill development over time & results in injuries that can set back your development by months (& are therefore counterproductive)
Then you move up the spectrum from a drill to intense specific sparring (ie try and apply the specific technique from the specific scenario against someone who knows what you're trying to do and has some skill to prevent it). Once the scenario changes, stop and start again
This kind of specific sparring is quite playful actually because there is less ego, you're just training with many reps
This forms the majority of our training at my BJJ academy
I do believe you also need to train free sparring, but again most of the time this should be on a spectrum and focused on more on skill development than winning per se
And you also need to do just enough hard core competitive sparring so you learn how to deal with that kind of intensity. I do believe that too much of this kind of training makes you tough, but isn't conducive to broad skill development over time & results in injuries that can set back your development by months (& are therefore counterproductive)
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Sparring to learn? That's weak
He sounds like he lurks on this website called Martial talk.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
Is that you in the video?
isshinryuronin
Master of Arts
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Light sparring will develop this, along with timing, speed and accuracy. Just enough power to reinforce the idea it's not good to get hit. It's also a good cardio builder and can be fun as well.
But we need to know what context the sparring is being done in. Sport or self-defense. There is overlap to be sure, but there are also major differences. The more self-defense centered your training goals are, the less importance sparring is, and the more two-man drills grow in importance and effectiveness.
Two-man drills can better replicate self-defense situations. These include grabs and fighting someone not trained in the same fighting doctrine (tournament style). Most important is that many of the most effective and valuable self-defense targets and weapons are not allowed in competition.
IMO, some sparring is OK as long as you understand these difference and limitations.
I would say sparring makes up about 15% of our practice, level of contact is determined by the protective gear available. I've never thought of sparring as the end all be all but I do think it teaches some things that are very difficult to learn any other way. Distance, timing, and the application of technique and strategy in an environment that is not pre-planned.
Well said.
Very, very important concepts that are hard for most people to fully grasp by drilling alone.
Are you fighting in that? Which one are you?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
They actually fight. There's application at the end of their training. You can overcome sub-optimal training with application, but it's much more difficult (being very generous) to overcome a lack of application with even the best training program.
Not committing and tightening your game leaves less openings, which is an advantage both in sparring or in a self-defense situation. It should make you able to handle the opponent's aggression (by blocking/dodging/controlling the range/etc.), all the more if he's untrained. You should also have a way to punish the aggressor, or else there's no reason to respect your threats in sparring. So if your karate pal doesn't commit because he's afraid of the counter, the "berserk" guy should regret it when he does.
I also think there is some validity to just hitting and getting hit. I don't want my students to experience getting hit for the very first time in a real world engagement, it's better if it happens in the relative safety of the dojang.
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Yes. The fear that the body explode or someone will die if is often the default from people who have never been hit. They either think they will hurt someone and put them in the hospital or that they will get hurt and be put in the hospital. That fear of being hit and fear of hurting someone that you hit are really big problems for some people.
Once they hit someone, they learn that they aren't as powerful as they thought. Once they get hit, they learn they aren't going to instantly die or even get hurt.
I'm like you. Don't want their first hard hit to be from fighting. I don't want their first hard hit to be a shock. One of my happiest days was when my sock got punched in his stomach and it knocked the wind out of him. He handled it and I was glad he experienced it. Now he won't panic when it happens again or when it's more severe. He'll recognize it for what it is and panic and think he's dying lol.
I have a friend who slipped on a log as a teen and landed on his ribs. It knocked the wind out of him. I laughed, not because he got hurt, but because he ran around like he was on fire and crying that he couldn't breathe. lol. I tried to help him out but he was in such a panic. It was his first time, and it scared the mess out of him. I still get a good chuckle even to this day. Now he's in construction and looks like a rugged guy. That fall probably did him some good lol.
I try to calm people's nerve about getting hit really hard. I joke and tell them, that the good news is that depending on where you get it, you won't feel it. You'll just wake up wondering what happened. lol. But seriously some pains is good to experience just so we can mentally and emotionally handle it.
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I don't think he said "dangerous". He said "not beneficial"
I thought Bill's point was that you can go so far as to even make it dangerous.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Isn’t that true for everything?
Pretty much.
I said it. Since I'm taking blood thinners, sparring is straight up dangerous for me. My sparring days are over. There are other medical reasons some folks might find sparring dangerous.
It's not a long drive in my case. I like to spar, very much. But I no longer can do so safely.
