Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????

[James Kovacich]

I hear you guys. But Americans take more heat than anyone over high rank vs. legitimacy.
Back then there was avery small number of martial artists compared to today. Probably (guessing) somewhere around 1000 or 10,000 , maybe 50,000 times as many martial artists today vs 75 years ago. There is "another vacuum" for new organizations.

 

[arnisador]

No, we don't need Asian approval.

But, credential inflation is a problem here.

 

[RRouuselot]

1) OR MAYBE the "key words" were "were qualified, based on criteria they wrote themselves"

2)I now think that todays Grandmasters are no less qualified than those who DID THE SAME things as they do today. I'm speaking of those who really do have 40-50 years in not the "young-fakes."

3)As far as those of that day "giving out a good ***-whooping." I agree. Today, many people inquire about my classes and they read the advertisement that it says it is Full Contact. And they do want to learn to fight BUT "they just want to hit but not be hit."

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I read that and have to ask several questions….Who wrote that? What is the comment based on? (was that a written rule for the day? Or did he just come to the idea?) How accurate a statement is it?

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Yeah I guess guys like Choki Motobu, Yabu Kentsu, Itosu etc are nowhere near in the same league as sat Rod Sacharnoski, Durbin, and a whole boat load of others. Oh, and by the way…..how many of those ancient guys used the term “soke” let alone “grandmaster”….I would really like to see some hard evidence they used such terms about themselves.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]You missed my point entirely.

 

[James Kovacich]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I read that and have to ask several questions….Who wrote that? What is the comment based on? (was that a written rule for the day? Or did he just come to the idea?) How accurate a statement is it?

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Yeah I guess guys like Choki Motobu, Yabu Kentsu, Itosu etc are nowhere near in the same league as sat Rod Sacharnoski, Durbin, and a whole boat load of others. Oh, and by the way…..how many of those ancient guys used the term “soke” let alone “grandmaster”….I would really like to see some hard evidence they used such terms about themselves.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]You missed my point entirely.

It seems that todays martial artists have WAY MORE time in great than they they did in that period.

The names you named. I can't vouch for but heres the article link.
http://judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]It seems that the “ancient ones” were not judged by time in grade. Today we are. Ummmm…

2)[font=&quot] [/font]I know Funokoshi and Yamaguchi were both “young heads of family.” Today we need 40-50 years in “to get respect.” Theres no way Funokoshi or Yamaguchi had that “time in.”

3)[font=&quot] [/font]I can’t honestly say that abour our predecessors.

4)[font=&quot] [/font]Skill is not enough according to most yet that was the qualification for our predecessors. I remember “ARK and DAC were told those very words. (I know it’s old, but it’s funny that our martial ancestors were judged on skill and and wrote their own requirements in regards to what rank they will take, just like today’s Soke’s) :uhyeah:

5)[font=&quot] [/font]It seem the “ancient ones” were held to lower standards!

6)[font=&quot] [/font]Do we still need to report to Asia to be legit??? :uhyeah:

1)[font=&quot] [/font]They weren’t? You think their teachers would let them progress even if they really sucked at something? What is your opinion based on?

2)[font=&quot] [/font]Neither were “heads of family”. I challenge you to show me where they ever used such a title.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]What??

4)[font=&quot] [/font]:rolleys: Two losers that fabricated their training history and ranks there in. 8th dan in Pangainoon my ***…..

5)[font=&quot] [/font]Really how so? Which ancient ones are we talking about? Matsumura Sokon? Nakamura Shigeru? Motobu? Kishimoto? Oddly enough on none of my MANY trips to Okinawa have I ever seen anyone use “Head of Family” or “Soke” and yet I see a bunch of dumb yahoos that practice karate in the west use it often.

6)[font=&quot] [/font]Depends on where the Honbu dojo is I guess.

 

[RRouuselot]

It seems that todays martial artists have WAY MORE time in great than they they did in that period.

[font=&quot]Funny how rank wasn’t even that widely used in Okinawa until after World War II. [/font]

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]I hear you guys. But Americans take more heat than anyone over high rank vs. legitimacy.

That’s probably due to the “strip-mall instructor” that claims he learned the ancient art of XXXXXX from Master Splinter.

I have yet to see an “American Soke/Granmaster” that taught something really outstanding or was even very well thought out for that matter.

People that regularly emphasize the use of Soke and other such lofty titles are compensating for their lack of skill and knowledge. Maybe it’s like those guys that think they need a big powerful hand gun, when in actual fact they are trying to make up for their little “wee-wee"
I am sure Freud would have plenty to say about it.

 

[James Kovacich]

1)[font=&quot] [/font] 5)[font=&quot] [/font]Really how so? Which ancient ones are we talking about? Matsumura Sokon? Nakamura Shigeru? Motobu? Kishimoto? Oddly enough on none of my MANY trips to Okinawa have I ever seen anyone use “Head of Family” or “Soke” and yet I see a bunch of dumb yahoos that practice karate in the west use it often.

{QUOTE]

If they don't use the words Soke or heads of family then why is their such an uproar about people in other countries usiing those words. If the words are not a part of their systems then they should NOT judge others for usining it, even if it is useds incorrectly.

Those dumb yahoos have more time in than those who created rank and the standards. I'm not speaking for all. I'm talking about the ones who really did train all those years and deserve their respect.

 

[RRouuselot]

From the same article
http://judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm



“A talented and, some say, colorful character, Toyama gave several certifications as largess to dojo heads in Okinawa and Japan proper. These were usually shibucho ("superintendent," from the feudal area commander title) diplomas. These certifications set up the individuals so named as head of their own branch of the All Japan Karatedo Federation and, by extension, of their own groups. Eizo Shimabuku, founder of the shobayashi-ryu/shorin-ryu faction (a Kyan-type tomarite/shurite shorin-ryu blend), traces his own tenth dan to a Toyama certification. Shimabuku's assumption of the tenth dan, and his wearing of a red belt, was not without dispute, and it was controversies of this type that led most Okinawan leaders to eschew the red belt altogether.”



I sure do see a lot of red belts in the US….



“It is clear that karate ranks sprang from several original sources -- a relatively modem construct on an old martial art. It was issued by individuals and institutions with set standards that were recognized by other prestigious groups and individuals. And this is the crux of the matter: For rank to be recognized, the bestower must be recognized within karate's mainstream community. It must be based in tradition, and linked to a body or sanctioned individual who is perceived as beyond reproach. The standards by which rank is achieved and given must be recognizable, and conform to already existing norms in the Okinawan/Japanese martial arts hierarchy. Anyone can print up or write a fancy certificate, but absent of any governmental or legal guidelines, it is the recognition and acceptance by existing groups and institutions that give each ranking group or individual its legitimacy.”



This particular statement is actually incorrect. Most dojo in Okinawa do not belong to FAJKO, the JKA, or JKF. The author has based is assumption incorrectly concerning dojo in Okinawa. The criteria used by the JKA/JKF and other Japanese Orgs. Is not used in Okinawa.

 

[James Kovacich]

[font=&quot]Funny how rank wasn’t even that widely used in Okinawa until after World War II. [/font]

Again I'm talking about the years in training. How old was Kanryo Higoshionna?

 

[arnisador]

I'm not speaking for all. I'm talking about the ones who really did train all those years and deserve their respect.

Exactly whom are you speaking about, then?

 

[James Kovacich]

From the same article
http://judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm




I sure do see a lot of red belts in the US….



.

Hey I thought you were one of us :uhyeah:

 

[James Kovacich]

Exactly whom are you speaking about, then?

We all know that not all who claim to be Grandmasters have a long track record for training. Those are the ones that I'm not speaking for.

But based on History. A lot of Americans have more training years than those who created the guidelines for rank in the first place. Those I respect and will speak for because when we put down the "fakes," the "real" get put down unjustly.

 

[RRouuselot]

1) If they don't use the words Soke or heads of family then why is their such an uproar about people in other countries usiing those words. If the words are not a part of their systems then they should NOT judge others for usining it, even if it is useds incorrectly.

2) Those dumb yahoos have more time in than those who created rank and the standards. 3) I'm not speaking for all. I'm talking about the ones who really did train all those years and deserve their respect.

1)Maybe it’s because some stupid foreigners are using a Japanese word they have no knowledge of. The use of this word has been discussed countless times on MT.

2)What kind of time? I have yet to see a self proclaimed Soke/Grandmaster that didn’t have a huge gut. Which is evidence he doesn’t train hard enough. Just because someone has had a rank for a long time doesn’t mean they actually trained that whole time. Uehara died at 100 and started his training at about 13 years old. He trained everyday.

3)I respect people that can get out on the floor and do technique well, I respect people that keep their pie hole shut and train with out feeling the need to claim a bunch of stupid rank. I have yet to see a western “soke” that could do any of the things I mentioned.

 

[RRouuselot]

We all know that not all who claim to be Grandmasters have a long track record for training. Those are the ones that I'm not speaking for.

But based on History. A lot of Americans have more training years than those who created the guidelines for rank in the first place. Those I respect and will speak for because when we put down the "fakes," the "real" get put down unjustly.

Specifically who do you think is a true grandmaster in the west?

Throw out a couple of names.

That shouldn’t be too hard based on what you have posted previously.

 

[James Kovacich]

1)[font=&quot] [/font] 2)[font=&quot] [/font]What kind of time? I have yet to see a self proclaimed Soke/Grandmaster that didn’t have a huge gut. Which is evidence he doesn’t train hard enough. Just because someone has had a rank for a long time doesn’t mean they actually trained that whole time.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]I respect people that can get out on the floor and do technique well, I respect people that keep their pie hole shut and train with out feeling the need to claim a bunch of stupid rank. I have yet to see a western “soke” that could do any of the things I mentioned.

2) Hanshi Angel does not have a gut.

3) He is really old, 70 something and moves like a 60 yearold.

At what age are they supposed to give up their rank? Their knowledge will be useless at that point, right?

 

[James Kovacich]

Specifically who do you think is a true grandmaster in the west?

Throw out a couple of names.

That shouldn’t be too hard based on what you have posted previously.

Hanshi Angel- 51 years in the martial arts

Hanshi Robert Maitlen- 54 years in the martial arts

 

[James Kovacich]

Wally Jay- Founder of Small Circle Ju Jitsu

Sigung Felix Macias Sr.- 45 years in the martial arts and founder of his own modified Wing Chun Gung Fu system.

Sifu Felix Macias Jr. - 38 years in martial arts and inheritor of his fathers Modified Wing Chun

Adriano Emperado - Founder of Kajukenbo in 1947

Helio Gracie - Founder of Gracie Ju Jitsu at least 70-75 years training

Vincent Cabales - inheritor of Cabales Escrima

Leo Fong - Founder of Wei Kuen Do and Short Sick Escrima ( 2 arts)

Al Dacascos - Founder of Won Hop Kuen Do

Ron Van Cleif - Founder of Chinese Goju

 

[RRouuselot]

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Hanshi Angel does not have a gut.

2) He is really old, 70 something and moves like a 60 yearold.

3) At what age are they supposed to give up their rank? Their knowledge will be useless at that point, right?

1)[font=&quot] [/font]Is that considered “slim” in America now?

2)[font=&quot] [/font]In Okinawa 70 is not that old. My teacher is in his mid 70’s and moves like a 40 year old.

3)[font=&quot] [/font]Here is something not usually done in the west…..if you don’t train for a while in a Japanese dojo you move down to white belt and stay there until your instructor feels otherwise. Knowledge is useless without practice. If you don’t use it you lose it.


On the left you can see a guy that typifies the self proclaimed American “Grandmaster/Soke” major nut job named Peter Urban, who is he supposed to be Count Dracula or Houdini?

 

[RRouuselot]

Wally Jay

Sigung Felix Macias Sr.

Sifu Felix Macias Jr.

Adriano Emperado

Helio Gracie

Vincent Cabales

Leo Fong

Al Dacascos

Ron Van Cleif

And how many use the title Soke?