Sokeship Council, Grandmaster or NOT????

[VSanhodo]

Hi Folks

Over the years I have been invited, solicited etc to be a memeber of various Hall of Fame groups and a few Soke Groups as well. Ive have my name without my permission on several sites. I have never had a big desire to become GrandMaster or Super Dooper Grand Master or Soke or Hall of fame memeber etc.
Now with all this being said I am curious, I have come across several sites recently who have lists of their memebers available, many of whom I know and of those whom I know the vast majority I out rank and have far more expierence. Well I should say I use to outrank them. But by some weird magic Pooof they have become Super Dooper Poooo Pa Grand Master, SOke in Charge of BS Martial Arts Ryu.
Ok so here is the question. What are your feelings of such groups. Are they credible? Are they worth joining??? Or being a memeber of??

One final comment if I may. The vast majoirty of these groups charge a substantial fee to join or become a memeber of. WHY??????????? If you are worthy of becoming a SOKE or HAll of FAME MEMBEr, why are you being charged??? Seems to me if your that good you shouldnt be charged, Honored yes, Charged to become a memeber, No.

Remember all views, opinions and posts are welcome.
Thanks
San

 

[James Kovacich]

Hi Folks

Over the years I have been invited, solicited etc to be a memeber of various Hall of Fame groups and a few Soke Groups as well. Ive have my name without my permission on several sites. I have never had a big desire to become GrandMaster or Super Dooper Grand Master or Soke or Hall of fame memeber etc.
Now with all this being said I am curious, I have come across several sites recently who have lists of their memebers available, many of whom I know and of those whom I know the vast majority I out rank and have far more expierence. Well I should say I use to outrank them. But by some weird magic Pooof they have become Super Dooper Poooo Pa Grand Master, SOke in Charge of BS Martial Arts Ryu.
Ok so here is the question. What are your feelings of such groups. Are they credible? Are they worth joining??? Or being a memeber of??

One final comment if I may. The vast majoirty of these groups charge a substantial fee to join or become a memeber of. WHY??????????? If you are worthy of becoming a SOKE or HAll of FAME MEMBEr, why are you being charged??? Seems to me if your that good you shouldnt be charged, Honored yes, Charged to become a memeber, No.

Remember all views, opinions and posts are welcome.
Thanks
San

Well I'll put the membership info of one these councils who is at the forefront of some of these discussions.


"THE WORLD HEAD OF FAMILY SOKESHIP COUNCIL"
MEMBERSHIP BENEFITS

There are no fees associated with membership as membership is by invitation or sponsorship only. This is an exclusive Union of the top grandmasters of 9th or 10th dan ranking or the equivalent from around the world who wish to communicate and live in peace with one another.

The WHFSC was founded in May of 1993 by Professor Frank E. Sanchez of Guam and is without a doubt the most elite grandmasters/Soke organization in the world with the MOST RECOGNIZABLE martial arts names in history of any Soke or grandmasters council currently in existence.

The WHFSC offers you outside "support "from other martial arts grandmasters and their organizations who are members to add to the strength you already possess from within your own organization.

The WHFSC serves as a registering agency for your inheritors and highest ranked student grand- masters.

We are NON-POLITICAL in that we only address those issues which directly concern us or are directed to us. We believe in the right of all "legitimate" organizations to co-exist in a friendly manner.

Our bi-monthly WHFSC Newsletter serves as the "voice" for the WHFSC and is available for a small yearly fee (the newsletter is optional and not a mandatory expense for members). It keeps you abreast of what is happening with the other grandmasters and serves as a sounding board for your own activities which are printed "free of charge".

We have Annual meetings held yearly where you can voice your concerns or join committees geared for the benefit of the martial arts community.

We have an Annual International Martial Arts Hall of Fame to honor you for your achievements and to honor those in the martial arts community whom you feel deserve induction..... We also have a special "recognition" category for your students.

Annual martial arts seminar symposiums are held yearly by the Council (usually as a part of our International Hall of Fame festivities) and its individual membership. Seminars which you can take part in (subject to certain restrictions by host)

 

[VSanhodo]

Since you quoted them in the subject line I figured I better give you some info on their membership and fee's that you "suggested."

"THE WORLD HEAD OF FAMILY SOKESHIP COUNCIL"
MEMBERSHIP BENEFITS

There are no fees associated with membership as membership is by invitation or sponsorship only. This is an exclusive Union of the top grandmasters of 9th or 10th dan ranking or the equivalent from around the world who wish to communicate and live in peace with one another.

The WHFSC was founded in May of 1993 by Professor Frank E. Sanchez of Guam and is without a doubt the most elite grandmasters/Soke organization in the world with the MOST RECOGNIZABLE martial arts names in history of any Soke or grandmasters council currently in existence.

The WHFSC offers you outside "support "from other martial arts grandmasters and their organizations who are members to add to the strength you already possess from within your own organization.

The WHFSC serves as a registering agency for your inheritors and highest ranked student grand- masters.

We are NON-POLITICAL in that we only address those issues which directly concern us or are directed to us. We believe in the right of all "legitimate" organizations to co-exist in a friendly manner.

Our bi-monthly WHFSC Newsletter serves as the "voice" for the WHFSC and is available for a small yearly fee (the newsletter is optional and not a mandatory expense for members). It keeps you abreast of what is happening with the other grandmasters and serves as a sounding board for your own activities which are printed "free of charge".

We have Annual meetings held yearly where you can voice your concerns or join committees geared for the benefit of the martial arts community.

We have an Annual International Martial Arts Hall of Fame to honor you for your achievements and to honor those in the martial arts community whom you feel deserve induction..... We also have a special "recognition" category for your students.

Annual martial arts seminar symposiums are held yearly by the Council (usually as a part of our International Hall of Fame festivities) and its individual membership. Seminars which you can take part in (subject to certain restrictions by host)

Hi

Please note that I changed the subject line to be more generic. It was not my intent to single out this org specifically. I do feel they as well as others have memebers that dont deserve to be memebers but I suppose that can be said for any group or profession.
Your post helped me and thus gave me the opportunity to be more clear and I thank you for that.
San

 

[James Kovacich]

Hi

Please note that I changed the subject line to be more generic. It was not my intent to single out this org specifically. I do feel they as well as others have memebers that dont deserve to be memebers but I suppose that can be said for any group or profession.
Your post helped me and thus gave me the opportunity to be more clear and I thank you for that.
San

Changed mine a bit.

 

[arnisador]

Soke boards...sheesh! What a joke.

 

[James Kovacich]

Soke boards...sheesh! What a joke.

So was your instructor a willing participant or did they use his name without his permission too? I found this on Martial Talk.

World Head of Family Sokeship Council -
“ Modern Arnis Man of the Year 2002”

In his case, from an outsiders point of view. He is a prime example of a need for guidance from our martial seniors.

 

[arnisador]

I don't speak for Mr. Hartman. You can ask him his opinion on this very board.

In his case, from an outsiders point of view. He is a prime example of a need for guidance from our martial seniors.

Perhaps you could be more explicit here.

 

[clfsean]

Those orgs... Bull sheet.:mp5:

 

[James Kovacich]

I don't speak for Mr. Hartman. You can ask him his opinion on this very board.


Perhaps you could be more explicit here.

Is he not your instructor? If not he is the head of your org. and there was no one left to promote him and thats what makes him a prime example of how and why a Grandmaster organization could exist.

Whether or not he is a member is not the issue. The issue is should these orgs. exist. I know of another Modern Arnis master who has been scrutinized for his involvement with members of that very same council I quoted earlier.

But you tell me. Who should we look up to. The seniors in the MA community or just promote ourselves?

 

[arnisador]

Tough question. Different people have different answers. I'd say for promotions, seniors who know you should be involved. This was the case with Mr. Hartman, though they didn't promote him per se. (The award you mention above, for which he was nominated by someone, was not a promotion in rank.) However, each case is different--I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer.

In case the question isn't rhetorical: Yes, he's my instructor and the head of the org. to which I belong.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Hartman tested for and was promoted to 6th by GM Presas. To 7th by the WMAA Board, endorsed by 2 outside GMs. See http://wmarnis.com/resume.html
No Soke-dokes in the mix, AFAIK.

Personally, since I can buy a blackbelt for $5 (complete with certificate), register my 'art' with some soke council or black belt society ($100-$3,000), I dismiss most claims of rank and look at a persons associations, peers (who endorse), and movements on the mat as criteria for selecting an instructor.

My own opinion is that unless you have legit ties to Japan, a "sokeship" is a joke. Theres a dozen or more groups that will "recognize" you, some for free, some for a fee. To me, it's all little more than resume padding and ego stoking. There very few legit sokes period, fewer outside Japan. What there are are too many fancy, misused titles used to mislead and cover up a lack of real talent or martial heart.



Disclaimer: Hartmans one of my instructors, and I do his web design. The opinions expressed are my own.

 

[RRouuselot]

Personally, since I can buy a blackbelt for $5 (complete with certificate), register my 'art' with some soke council or black belt society ($100-$3,000), I dismiss most claims of rank and look at a persons associations, peers (who endorse), and movements on the mat as criteria for selecting an instructor.

My own opinion is that unless you have legit ties to Japan, a "sokeship" is a joke. Theres a dozen or more groups that will "recognize" you, some for free, some for a fee. To me, it's all little more than resume padding and ego stoking. There very few legit sokes period, fewer outside Japan. What there are are too many fancy, misused titles used to mislead and cover up a lack of real talent or martial heart.



Disclaimer: Hartmans one of my instructors, and I do his web design. The opinions expressed are my own.

Good gravy Bob you are starting to sound like me……that’s scary!

 

[Andrew Green]

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23392

Come sign up

 

[James Kovacich]

Arnisador and Kaith,
My observations were in defense of one org. and by no means all that exist, not even the majority.

Tims accomplishments alone speak volumes. I just don't like so many of Americas true martial art pioneers taking the heat because there happens to be so many copy cat orgs. that in the publics view do not make the grade.

I did not state that all of their members are pioneers just that some of our true great warriors who have paid their dues are members. To disgrace them is to disgrace martial arts in America in general. If these pioneers never existed, how much worse would the arts be in our great country.

 

[arnisador]

I thought this was a general discussion, not about a particular org.

Most of the Soke boards I've seen have had some members that are well-known. But, "soke" is clearly being used incorrectly.

As far as organizations per se, that's fine. I understand that when Tatsuo Shimabuku started Isshin-ryu he sought approval from several other Karate heads of system first. Facilitating that is reasonable...but "soke" is not an accurate descriptor.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Maybe it's time we just quit idolizing people, and quit looking for people we could look up to. Maybe we should just work on respect for a teacher's acheivements and ability, and let it go at that.

I don't agree that this shows why we need guidance. This stuff's pretty darn simple--"Everything I Needed to Know I Learned in Kindergarten," simple:

1. Don't lie and make up stuff.
2. Think about what you say.
3. Apologize when you're wrong.
4. Don't take other kids' stuff.
5. It's not nice to take credit for what somebody else did.

And a tricky one: martial artists are supposed to constantly be evaluating not just their techniques, but their own character.

And a cultural one: in a country where everything's about money, why are people surprised to find out that martial arts are sometimes all about money?

 

[James Kovacich]

I thought this was a general discussion, not about a particular org.

Most of the Soke boards I've seen have had some members that are well-known. But, "soke" is clearly being used incorrectly.

As far as organizations per se, that's fine. I understand that when Tatsuo Shimabuku started Isshin-ryu he sought approval from several other Karate heads of system first. Facilitating that is reasonable...but "soke" is not an accurate descriptor.

You're right because you jumped after the fire got started but it was initially addressed in the subject line at that org. and then edited to be all the orgs but technically the fire was already ignited.

Just an observation. It seems that the majority in that org. really are "our" seniors and it just dosen't make sense for the "juniors" to talk about them on "how they should go about there buisness."

If anyone attempts to address Hanshi on his buisness he will and has said (I know someone on the receiving end) something like don't worry about my store and I won't worry about yours.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Good gravy Bob you are starting to sound like me……that’s scary!

Well...

 

[MichiganTKD]

One of the problems I have with these "Soke Councils" is this: Let's say you are a high ranking Tae Kwon Do Grandmaster who is on one of these Soke boards, Would it not make more sense to have the respect and admiration of OTHER Tae Kwon Do Grandmasters who are your peers than a bunch of self promoted and self created "Grandmasters"? I noticed a couple of allegedly high ranking TKD Grandmasters on the Soke board. First, being high ranking in TKD does not make you a Soke, which is a Japanese term anyway. It means you are high ranking in TKD. The closest approximation in Korean, I believe, is Kwan Jang of a style. Woon Kyu Uhm is the Kwan Jang of Chung Do Kwan.
Second, let's say you claim high rank in the WTF, as one of the TKD Instructors does (I've read his biography). Would it not make more sense to establish oneself as a respected WTF (or ITF, since he also claims the certification) Instructor than lower yourself to associating with these characters? Why would you care about or seek the attention of a bunch of phony Instructors outside your style? Does your ego need stroking that much? It applies to ANY high ranking martial artist. Why bother with these jokers when the respect of your art's seniors seems much more desirable.
Funny, the names that are NOT on the list of members strikes me as just important as the names that are.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Everything is about power and money many times. Ego's too are involved.

A true master will not claim or make himself above all. Isn't this the way it suppose to be? The purpose of a teacher is to help others' become a better human being.

Yes! We need a leader and someone to be a role model. Someone who is the Master teacher. Isn't he just a person too? Today, many so call Masters's want to be like a God? A bigger than life person. This is not true for most of the Sensi's.

We are all human beings born with different ways of being raise up. Ego's, the power and the money are some of the things that influence our behavior. Each person has their own belief of themselves and what they may believe they should be.

Many times it is the students who wants a God like leader and ?

Just my thoughts.............Aloha