Siu Bot Gwa

[Vajramusti]

The Siu Bot Gwa is unique to the Fut Sao lineage. It is very different from anyother lineage of Wing Chun. Ip man wing chun does have some foot work that we do but IMO it's incomplete. You need to peice together the dummy and the knife to get some of it. the form is like a square inside a circle. Every time we step we move 90 or 180 degrees around our opponent. Ip man wing chun only has 45 degrees and we have much more foot work we use the low sei pin ma, side steping horse the kneeling horse and others. We use the half step or steeling a half step and a full step which is a cross over leg stance.within each stance we have man leg traps sweeps and leg breaks. actually this is the hardest part of the fut sao system.[/QUOTE
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Ip Man wing chun families- several key ones- have ooodles of foot work.
You apparently don't know about that. Sorry.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Look man, I respect what your saying about your current lineage (Fut Sao) but you need to realize that you come across as speaking for the ENTIRE YIP MAN LINEAGE when you make statements like this. If you had studied years and years under each of Yip Man's students then perhaps maybe people will take you seriously but until then perhaps you should say something like "the previous Yip Man lineage I studied did not have Siu Bot Gwa....etc etc".
I'll never understand why people jump on the web and spout this stuff.
Who told you or how did you come to conclude that Yip Man WC only has 45 degree stepping???? Who told you Yip Man WC does not have side stepping horse, or the kneeling horse??? Who told you that Yip Man WC does not have the half step or full step or cross over leg stance???
I have no issues with you or Fut Sao lineage, I'm just trying to understand how you can say such things, and even put them on your website from years ago, without a full understanding of Yip Man WC?
I agree that perhaps the separate Siu Bot Gwa form may be contained in your family as you suggest; but can you elaborate on what it is exactly? I think the stuff you mention IS in some way still alive and well in the Yip Man families out there...but I'm still wondering exactly what Siu Bot Gwa is. If it is a family secret that you are not willing to share then so be it. I understand.
And because the web doesn't convey tone and inflection, please understand that this is not typed in a rude way; just trying to get to the bottom of this and to learn more...thanks man.

You asked a question " what is Siu Bot Gwa" and I told you to the best of my ability. I have trained in Wing Chun for over 30 years. I have trained with a lot of people and have traveled all over the world meeting many wing chun masters from many lines so I talk from my experience not just hot air. You just don't like the answer i gave you.. I told you in a direct and simple way just like Wing Chun. Also,I'm the only one here qualified that has studied both Io Man WC and Fut Sao WC so I can make an opinion based on a direct experience. I don't think anyone here can. I like all lines of WC. I personally don't think one is better then another but not all are the same. Fut Sao happends to be different in certain ways. One way is its footwork. I would also say Ip Man WC is different in certain ways also. On way is it is more of a modern and can be explained in western terms unlike Fut sao which still uses the old chinese ways of thinking like the bat qwa, the five powers and so on...Anyone that really is interested in the footwork should come and seek me out. i will gladly show it to you. Ihave no problem with that. It's not a secret its only footwork that is different from what most are not used to. most would say its not wing chun....

One thing I like to add and make clear. "when I said IMO Ip Man WC footwork is incomplete" should not be taken as incomplete lacking in footwork,but meaning lacking a 4th form and additional footwork that is used outside Ip man WC.

 

[futsaowingchun]

The Siu Bot Gwa is unique to the Fut Sao lineage. It is very different from anyother lineage of Wing Chun. Ip man wing chun does have some foot work that we do but IMO it's incomplete. You need to peice together the dummy and the knife to get some of it. the form is like a square inside a circle. Every time we step we move 90 or 180 degrees around our opponent. Ip man wing chun only has 45 degrees and we have much more foot work we use the low sei pin ma, side steping horse the kneeling horse and others. We use the half step or steeling a half step and a full step which is a cross over leg stance.within each stance we have man leg traps sweeps and leg breaks. actually this is the hardest part of the fut sao system.[/QUOTE







Never said Ip Man Wc did not have footwork,just that it does not have the ones in my 4th form thats all.
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Ip Man wing chun families- several key ones- have ooodles of foot work.

You apparently don't know about that. Sorry.

Oh yeah the secret footwork...lol stop with the BS

 

[Vajramusti]

The Siu Bot Gwa is unique to the Fut Sao lineage. It is very different from anyother lineage of Wing Chun. Ip man wing chun does have some foot work that we do but IMO it's incomplete. You need to peice together the dummy and the knife to get some of it. the form is like a square inside a circle. Every time we step we move 90 or 180 degrees around our opponent. Ip man wing chun only has 45 degrees and we have much more foot work we use the low sei pin ma, side steping horse the kneeling horse and others. We use the half step or steeling a half step and a full step which is a cross over leg stance.within each stance we have man leg traps sweeps and leg breaks. actually this is the hardest part of the fut sao system.

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Inaccurate generalization about Ip Man's wing chun...for sure.

 

[futsaowingchun]

prove me wrong if I'm wrong all you have is a lot of hot air..

 

[Rou30]

According to Grandmaster Henry Leung, Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen came from a very old system of martial and healing art believed to pre-date Shaolin. Fut Sao is a subset of an original Taoist internal system, that was kept within it’s own sect, but was lost and forgotten until it was rediscovered by the Venerable Hsu Yun, GM Henry Leung’s Sifu (a Buddhist monk. The original name of the art was called Gu Yee Kuen or Ancient Fist). The Gu Yee Kuen system is thought to be the core or root system, on which other arts also came about. GM Henry Leung named the subset Fut Sao or Buddha Hand in honor of his sifu.


Hmm, out of curiosity, if the origins of this style are said to have pre-dated Shaolin & even to be a sub-set of an Internal Taoist system, how exactly is this Wing Chun?
Most lineages trace their lineages back to the 1800's, with a few stating that theirs are from the 1600's. So what makes it Wing Chun in other words? Because it has SLT/CK/BG? The history section leaves many things to question, but that's good in a way.

 

[KPM]

According to Grandmaster Henry Leung, Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen came from a very old system of martial and healing art believed to pre-date Shaolin. Fut Sao is a subset of an original Taoist internal system, that was kept within it’s own sect, but was lost and forgotten until it was rediscovered by the Venerable Hsu Yun, GM Henry Leung’s Sifu (a Buddhist monk.

Emei!!!


The original name of the art was called Gu Yee Kuen or Ancient Fist). The Gu Yee Kuen system is thought to be the core or root system, on which other arts also came about. GM Henry Leung named the subset Fut Sao or Buddha Hand in honor of his sifu.

Henry Leung was Duncan Leung's brother, wasn't he? Seems likely to me that Henry Leung knew Wing Chun, learned something else from his Sifu, combined it with Wing Chun, and viola! Fut Sao Wing Chun! Notice that the narrative above calls the "extra" that he learned a "subset."

 

[Kwan Sau]

Henry Leung was Duncan Leung's brother, wasn't he?

Really? Wow, hadn't heard that before. Interesting. Where did you learn that or hear about it? Would like to know more...

Notice that the narrative above calls the "extra" that he learned a "subset."

What is a "subset"? How is that term defined? Like an add-on as you describe? Or something outside the "normal" curriculum of the three forms, jong, pole, knives etc?

 

[Vajramusti]

Xiao Ba Gua Quan

Some lines of Yong Chun have preserved a 4th form, Xiao Ba Gua Quan, Ba Gua Quan, Zhuang Quan, Jian Zhang Quan etc. Many mistakenly presume that it is very secret knowledge passed on to only a few, this is incorrect. You need to realize that Yong Chun hasn't always had a Wooden Man form, the apparatus has been used from early on but a "form" wasn't developed until much later. Oral traditions state that prominent master Liang Zan in the past realized that this 4th form was simply a compendium of the other three sets and the material was used as a springboard in the development of the weapon and post forms. Some family lines that have been passed down before the codification occurred do not have a Mu Ren Zhuang form and instead have another empty hand form that contains the primordial material that was used in the development of the Post set. This by no means states that these systems are purer just that they simply didn't evolve the same.

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Thx for your post.
Names! Siu, bot/ba/ gwat are just labels used by different systems. Also--- forms and drills- their meanings also vary. And wing chun "history" can be problematic.
Further "history" is muddled with in sufficiently substantiated but repeated claims of very "old" roots of one's art--before Shaolin, "before Ip Man"," back to Leung Jan", "emei twelve",etc.
For myself- I mostly stick to the logic,the concepts, the mechanics, dynamics, the external and internal and breathing of any martial art that I am interested in.

It makes sense to distinguish between forms and drills. Drills generally have some specific functions-footwork, handwork, timing, etc.
A form is more holistic combining self timing, footwork, handwork, breathing, mind training-stage by stage and using Occam's razor to create a comprehensive package.
The great systems have only one, two or there forms Ip man always worked on simplification -cutting out many movements because the principle already was embedded elsewhere.The Ip Man wingchun I learned, practice and teach- already has bot- 8 directional work. The dummy work, the kwan and the do simply enhance and inform the hands. Bot/baqua is even there in forms of
jing- multi directional explosive baquajing.

Chen taiji has two main forms. Ip Man's wing chun has 3 empty hand forms-- but they are inter-related- overt time they become progressive stages of one form. Thus the biu function is in all 3 forms.

 

[dlcox]

It does exist, but it is greatly varied by various lines. Remnants of it can be found in the various lineages that claim direct lineage to Huang Hua Bao and Da Hua Mian Jin.

Short forms preserved:

1. La Jian Chui - Stretching Arrow Strike
2. Shier Sanshi - 12 Loose Techniques
3. Lian Huan Kou Da - Linked Capture & Strike
4. Shisan Sanshi - 13 Loose Techniques
5. Shiba Sanshi - 18 Loose Techniques
6. Jian Quan - Arrow Fist
7. Shiliu Sanshi - 16 Loose Techniques

Long forms preserved:

1. Xiao Ba Gua Quan - Small 8 Diagrams Fist
2. Ba Gua Quan - 8 Diagrams Fist
3. Jian Zhang Quan - Arrow Palm Fist
4. Zhuang Kuang Quan - Post Frame Fist
5. Zhuang Quan - Post Fist
6. Si Men Quan - 4 Gates Fist
7. Hua Quan - Flower/Variegated Fist
8. Shiyi Shou Quan - 11 Hands Fist
9. San Bei Fo Quan - 3 Prayers to Buddha Fist
10. Qiang Bao Zhang Quan - Mast Bag Palm Fist

All of these forms and sets can be accurately traced back to Huang Hua Bao or Da Hua Mian Jin and as such are considered ancestral. All other forms and sets outside of the above listed and the 3 standard (Xiao Lian Tou Quan, Chen Qiao Quan & Biao Zhi Quan) are considered modern developments coming into existence after the 1940's by either creation or imported from outside arts. Weapons sets and the Post(s) were poorly organized and not codified in any sense of a "form" until approximately the 1930's, hence the overflow of extra material found in the sets and forms presented above. After the codification of the post and weapons many of these patterns disappeared from several lineages in their ancestral form. Some lineages, though did retain them.

Most of the long forms are simply a collection of the loose material and the shorter "unfinished" sets, some are simply elaborations on the 3 sections of the first set Xiao Lian Tou Quan. Mostly what they have to offer is further exploration of certain concepts and/or footwork. Yong Chun was originally a very simplistic art based on approximately 48 techniques bound and linked by various concepts, principles and theories. As with many systems of TMA "Forms" were simply a collection of loose techniques and theoretical approach, to be composed/choreographed into a "Set" once the adept had learned all the movements and theory. This is known as Kuang Lian (Frame Training) and is an old TMA concept that stems from military training. This can clearly be seen in Northern Chinese systems as well as in Okinawan Kata, ever wonder why two or more lineages that trained under the same master have two Taolu/Kata that are recognizable yet vary in length and choreography? Some of this is undoubtedly alterations made by those that passed it on but also because of the old "Frame Training" method that used to be prevalent before the WWI. The British aristocracy and the opera had a lot to do with the standardization of Taolu for performance reasons.

Irregardless these sets will offer little to individuals that learned a "completed" version of Yong Chun, for those who "didn't" they may offer some insight into various concepts. I for one have learned some of these sets and find them interesting and worthwhile, others may not, to each their own.

 

[Kwan Sau]

It does exist, but it is greatly varied by various lines. Remnants of it can be found in the various lineages that claim direct lineage to Huang Hua Bao and Da Hua Mian Jin....

Some lineages, though did retain them....

Irregardless these sets will offer little to individuals that learned a "completed" version of Yong Chun, for those who "didn't" they may offer some insight into various concepts. I for one have learned some of these sets and find them interesting and worthwhile, others may not, to each their own....

Wow! Thanks a lot for all that man. That is quite interesting!!!
Question: how short is a "short form"? And how long is a "long form"?
Thanks again! Great discussion!

 

[Eric_H]

It does exist, but it is greatly varied by various lines. Remnants of it can be found in the various lineages that claim direct lineage to Huang Hua Bao and Da Hua Mian Jin.

Short forms preserved:

1. La Jian Chui - Stretching Arrow Strike
2. Shier Sanshi - 12 Loose Techniques
3. Lian Huan Kou Da - Linked Capture & Strike
4. Shisan Sanshi - 13 Loose Techniques
5. Shiba Sanshi - 18 Loose Techniques
6. Jian Quan - Arrow Fist
7. Shiliu Sanshi - 16 Loose Techniques

Long forms preserved:

1. Xiao Ba Gua Quan - Small 8 Diagrams Fist
2. Ba Gua Quan - 8 Diagrams Fist
3. Jian Zhang Quan - Arrow Palm Fist
4. Zhuang Kuang Quan - Post Frame Fist
5. Zhuang Quan - Post Fist
6. Si Men Quan - 4 Gates Fist
7. Hua Quan - Flower/Variegated Fist
8. Shiyi Shou Quan - 11 Hands Fist
9. San Bei Fo Quan - 3 Prayers to Buddha Fist
10. Qiang Bao Zhang Quan - Mast Bag Palm Fist

All of these forms and sets can be accurately traced back to Huang Hua Bao or Da Hua Mian Jin and as such are considered ancestral. All other forms and sets outside of the above listed and the 3 standard (Xiao Lian Tou Quan, Chen Qiao Quan & Biao Zhi Quan) are considered modern developments coming into existence after the 1940's by either creation or imported from outside arts. Weapons sets and the Post(s) were poorly organized and not codified in any sense of a "form" until approximately the 1930's, hence the overflow of extra material found in the sets and forms presented above. After the codification of the post and weapons many of these patterns disappeared from several lineages in their ancestral form. Some lineages, though did retain them.

Most of the long forms are simply a collection of the loose material and the shorter "unfinished" sets, some are simply elaborations on the 3 sections of the first set Xiao Lian Tou Quan. Mostly what they have to offer is further exploration of certain concepts and/or footwork. Yong Chun was originally a very simplistic art based on approximately 48 techniques bound and linked by various concepts, principles and theories. As with many systems of TMA "Forms" were simply a collection of loose techniques and theoretical approach, to be composed/choreographed into a "Set" once the adept had learned all the movements and theory. This is known as Kuang Lian (Frame Training) and is an old TMA concept that stems from military training. This can clearly be seen in Northern Chinese systems as well as in Okinawan Kata, ever wonder why two or more lineages that trained under the same master have two Taolu/Kata that are recognizable yet vary in length and choreography? Some of this is undoubtedly alterations made by those that passed it on but also because of the old "Frame Training" method that used to be prevalent before the WWI. The British aristocracy and the opera had a lot to do with the standardization of Taolu for performance reasons.

Irregardless these sets will offer little to individuals that learned a "completed" version of Yong Chun, for those who "didn't" they may offer some insight into various concepts. I for one have learned some of these sets and find them interesting and worthwhile, others may not, to each their own.

Sources for any of this?

 

[dlcox]

The short forms range from 9-18 movements. The long forms vary from approximately 40-200.

Short forms preserved:

1. La Jian Chui - Stretching Arrow Strike
2. Shier Sanshi - 12 Loose Techniques
3. Lian Huan Kou Da - Linked Capture & Strike
4. Shisan Sanshi - 13 Loose Techniques
5. Shiba Sanshi - 18 Loose Techniques
6. Jian Quan - Arrow Fist
7. Shiliu Sanshi - 16 Loose Techniques

These methods are preserved in various lines stemming from Liang Zan, with the exception of Shisan Sanshi which is found in lineages stemming from Yi Jin and the Cao family of Malaysia.

Long forms preserved:

1. Xiao Ba Gua Quan - Small 8 Diagrams Fist
2. Ba Gua Quan - 8 Diagrams Fist
3. Jian Zhang Quan - Arrow Palm Fist
4. Zhuang Kuang Quan - Post Frame Fist
5. Zhuang Quan - Post Fist
6. Si Men Quan - 4 Gates Fist
7. Hua Quan - Flower/Variegated Fist
8. Shiyi Shou Quan - 11 Hands Fist
9. San Bei Fo Quan - 3 Prayers to Buddha Fist
10. Qiang Bao Zhang Quan - Mast Bag Palm Fist

Forms 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 are preserved by the Tang, Lou, Dang & Ruan families that descended from Fang Shao Qing.

Forms 1*, 2*, 3**, 5, 6 are preserved by some lines descending from Liang Zan.

* 1, 2, In some versions of the history Liang Zan is the one who passed down the Ba Gua form.

** 3, This form was originally said to be a White Crane form that was possibly passed on by the Opera performer Li Wen Mao. According to legend it was passed on to Liang Zan and then Wu Zhong Su.

All in all these forms and sets are attributed to individuals from Liang Zan's time and earlier, making them ancestral sets. The differences in names are most likely due to the individuals that learned and modified them and not from the individual that taught it to them. I have seen many of these sets and can verify that many of them are expressing the same concepts, variances are in emphasis of preferred techniques and choreography. Some are simply a composition of the three recognized standard forms.

That's enough information to get anyone started into further research, investigate the family sources for yourselves if you want more detailed descriptions.

 

[Eric_H]

The short forms range from 9-18 movements. The long forms vary from approximately 40-200.

These methods are preserved in various lines stemming from Liang Zan, with the exception of Shisan Sanshi which is found in lineages stemming from Yi Jin and the Cao family of Malaysia.

Now I see you, they're part of the Gulo curriculum that Leung Jan taught. IMO, having see the few of these, they're drilling sets (working on hardware) vs forms (working on software). Sometimes that's said Siu Lein Tao vs. Siu Nim Tao, such as Yik Kam's system which is WC combined with some outside influences.

Forms 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10 are preserved by the Tang, Lou, Dang & Ruan families that descended from Fang Shao Qing.

That's Weng Chun, despite recent marketing attempts otherwise, it's a system separate to Wing Chun.

Forms 1*, 2*, 3**, 5, 6 are preserved by some lines descending from Liang Zan.

Can you be more specific? Since you're using Mandarin romanization vs the more common cantonese for WC, research is a bit difficult.

All in all these forms and sets are attributed to individuals from Liang Zan's time and earlier, making them ancestral sets.

Proof is in the pudding.

 

[dlcox]

Eric_H;1654346]Now I see you, they're part of the Gulo curriculum that Leung Jan taught. IMO, having see the few of these, they're drilling sets (working on hardware) vs forms (working on software). Sometimes that's said Siu Lein Tao vs. Siu Nim Tao, such as Yik Kam's system which is WC combined with some outside influences.

These Sanshi methods are said to have come from Liang Li Tai (Leung Lee Dai) whose material was used by Liang Zan (Leung Jan) to create the Gulao (Koo Lo) method. Much of this material is still contained in it's loose form in various branches of Liang Zan (Leung Jan) and Ye wen (Yip Man) Yong Chun.

That's Weng Chun, despite recent marketing attempts otherwise, it's a system separate to Wing Chun.

No it's not, there is no such beast, the terms "Beautiful" & "Praise" were used interchangeably throughout the history of the art even by members of the same lineage. It's simply preference of verbage. What many call "Weng Chun" consider it a different art, it is not. Fang Shao Qing (Fung Siu Ching) is a legitimate ancestor of the art and celebrated by many lineages of Yong Chun, most notebly the Ruan (Yuen) family who were direct inheritors of his art. Fang Shao Qing learned from Da Hua Mian Jin (Dai Wah Min Jan) who trained alongside of Huang Hua Bao (Wong Wah Bo) and Liang Li Tai (Leung Lee Dai) under Liang Bo Liu (Leung Bok Chao), the husband of Yan Yong Chun (Yim Wing Chun). The Dang (Dong), Tang and Lou (Lo) families may have embellished their method with arts such as Hongjia, but they are legitimately a part of the Yong Chun family, no different than Chen (Chan) or Cao (Cho) families or anyone else that descended from Liang Bo Liu (Leung Bok Chao). The lines stemming from Liang Zan are simply the most popular, especially Ye Wen (Yip Man) line, but should not be considered the standard for all Yong Chun branches.

Proof is in the pudding.

And if you dig a bit further you'll see that there are many differnt flavors of pudding based on the same recipie. Pick the one you like, because one isn't better than another. It all comes down to personal preference.

 

[futsaowingchun]

I tend to agree Joy...Yip Man passed down some interesting tidbits that did not necessarily make it into the hands of some of his well known students. I think this may be the case with why that guys webpage throws YP WC under the bus and glorifies his other lineage. No disrespect meant to this guy...I know everyone is proud of their respective lineages and wing chun families...but he either was never taught this type of footwork from Moy Yat or Lee Moy Shan or they themselves didn't know it.

Forget about what the website says. Like i said in my other post if you take the wooden dummy footwork and the weapons and put it together you in essense have something similar. The siu bot gwa has spinning foot work in it where you turn your back to your opponent. Would a Ip man wc man do this?

 

[futsaowingchun]

Didn't see this before I responded...
Hey futsau....can you fill us in on this form and give us some info on it?

Heck, you can even come to my house and teach it to me if you'd like....just sayin'

where do you live?

 

[futsaowingchun]

No.its not that. its very simple actually but hard to do when using linear hand work. the body is like a dragon and the hands like a crane.

 

[futsaowingchun]

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IMO-iit's an eight direction patttern drill in 8 directions starting and ending around a central point.

ent

that is only a part of it. there is no central point as it in flux.

 

[yak sao]

where do you live?

Kentucky