Siu Bot Gwa
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futsaowingchun
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That's what my initial research indicated but... I'm wondering what the pattern/geometry is? Is it a circle? Or some long intricate form from CLF? Or is it a more of a simple concept/idea of stepping a certain way with your feet but is repeated in 8 cardinal directions(?).
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Kwan Sau
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Yeah, I read that. "Doesn't exist in other lineages" may be innacurate, but I can't know for sure until I learn more about it. You may be correct if it only exists (and your only referring to) a solo stepping footwork "form"...however until I learn more I can't say for sure. I read a WCI article about it but still need more info. Thx.
I had heard about this form years ago and did some research on it...this was even back in the days before google so honestly there wasn't a lot to find.
From what I understand, it is the fourth form that Leung Jan removed from his curriculum way back when. Not because it was not a good form but because he felt it was redundant, as the material within it was contained elsewhere in the dummy, etc. and Leung Jan was all about simplifying from everything that I've read about him.
You won't find it in any Yip Man lineage as his teachings are descended from Leung Jan, but there are probably still mainland WC lineages that practice it.....I've always wanted to see it.
Didn't see this before I responded...
Hey futsau....can you fill us in on this form and give us some info on it?
Heck, you can even come to my house and teach it to me if you'd like....just sayin'
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Kwan Sau
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Hi Yak. Yeah, I hear what your saying but, for now at least, I'm going to disagree because I think it did survive and is present in Yip Man WC. Can't say anymore until I learn more about it. Thx for the feedback though!
Vajramusti
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A spinoff in 8 directions from mook jong footwork imo
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Kwan Sau
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I tend to agree Joy...Yip Man passed down some interesting tidbits that did not necessarily make it into the hands of some of his well known students. I think this may be the case with why that guys webpage throws YP WC under the bus and glorifies his other lineage. No disrespect meant to this guy...I know everyone is proud of their respective lineages and wing chun families...but he either was never taught this type of footwork from Moy Yat or Lee Moy Shan or they themselves didn't know it.
Vajramusti
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IMO , Ip Man did not hand out a fixed formula of the whole system to all of his students. Since then many of his students
have learned/borrowed from each other. Ditto for some non Ip Man groups.
Many did not learn biu gee from him. No harm done. He was a true martial art genius. Given changes in societies since Ip Man's death
..will be difficult ofr others to take a similar journey
Eric_H
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So I'm curious, does it deal with 4-front-4-corner type of employment like one might learn in tai chi or bagua or is it 8 leg methods stitched together in sequence (pak gerk, bong gerk, etc)?
Xiao Ba Gua Quan
Some lines of Yong Chun have preserved a 4th form, Xiao Ba Gua Quan, Ba Gua Quan, Zhuang Quan, Jian Zhang Quan etc. Many mistakenly presume that it is very secret knowledge passed on to only a few, this is incorrect. You need to realize that Yong Chun hasn't always had a Wooden Man form, the apparatus has been used from early on but a "form" wasn't developed until much later. Oral traditions state that prominent master Liang Zan in the past realized that this 4th form was simply a compendium of the other three sets and the material was used as a springboard in the development of the weapon and post forms. Some family lines that have been passed down before the codification occurred do not have a Mu Ren Zhuang form and instead have another empty hand form that contains the primordial material that was used in the development of the Post set. This by no means states that these systems are purer just that they simply didn't evolve the same.
Some lines of Yong Chun have preserved a 4th form, Xiao Ba Gua Quan, Ba Gua Quan, Zhuang Quan, Jian Zhang Quan etc. Many mistakenly presume that it is very secret knowledge passed on to only a few, this is incorrect. You need to realize that Yong Chun hasn't always had a Wooden Man form, the apparatus has been used from early on but a "form" wasn't developed until much later. Oral traditions state that prominent master Liang Zan in the past realized that this 4th form was simply a compendium of the other three sets and the material was used as a springboard in the development of the weapon and post forms. Some family lines that have been passed down before the codification occurred do not have a Mu Ren Zhuang form and instead have another empty hand form that contains the primordial material that was used in the development of the Post set. This by no means states that these systems are purer just that they simply didn't evolve the same.
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Kwan Sau
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Excellent post, and thank you. I tend to agree! For example, some students under Yip Man must have been taught this stepping method(?) because it is seen (although not too often) in muk yan jong stepping patterns and mui fa jong and gerk jong patterns etc. It's just not "broken out" in a separate "4th form". This knowledge is not constrained to this Buddha/Fut Sao Wing Chun exclusively.
Having said all that...I'd still like to know what Siu Bot Gwa is. An empty hand form? A stepping pattern? If so, what is the form pattern? Has anyone ever filmed it or have any diagrams of its macro/micro nature? Thanks in advance! Good discussion topic Gents!
So you think that the form itself is still in existence within YM lineage,not just the material preserved in other places such as wooden dummy or tri podal dummy?
Vajramusti
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IMO-iit's an eight direction patttern drill in 8 directions starting and ending around a central point.
futsaowingchun
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The Siu Bot Gwa is unique to the Fut Sao lineage. It is very different from anyother lineage of Wing Chun. Ip man wing chun does have some foot work that we do but IMO it's incomplete. You need to peice together the dummy and the knife to get some of it. the form is like a square inside a circle. Every time we step we move 90 or 180 degrees around our opponent. Ip man wing chun only has 45 degrees and we have much more foot work we use the low sei pin ma, side steping horse the kneeling horse and others. We use the half step or steeling a half step and a full step which is a cross over leg stance.within each stance we have man leg traps sweeps and leg breaks. actually this is the hardest part of the fut sao system.
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Look man, I respect what your saying about your current lineage (Fut Sao) but you need to realize that you come across as speaking for the ENTIRE YIP MAN LINEAGE when you make statements like this. If you had studied years and years under each of Yip Man's students then perhaps maybe people will take you seriously but until then perhaps you should say something like "the previous Yip Man lineage I studied did not have Siu Bot Gwa....etc etc".
I'll never understand why people jump on the web and spout this stuff.
Who told you or how did you come to conclude that Yip Man WC only has 45 degree stepping???? Who told you Yip Man WC does not have side stepping horse, or the kneeling horse??? Who told you that Yip Man WC does not have the half step or full step or cross over leg stance???
I have no issues with you or Fut Sao lineage, I'm just trying to understand how you can say such things, and even put them on your website from years ago, without a full understanding of Yip Man WC?
I agree that perhaps the separate Siu Bot Gwa form may be contained in your family as you suggest; but can you elaborate on what it is exactly? I think the stuff you mention IS in some way still alive and well in the Yip Man families out there...but I'm still wondering exactly what Siu Bot Gwa is. If it is a family secret that you are not willing to share then so be it. I understand.
And because the web doesn't convey tone and inflection, please understand that this is not typed in a rude way; just trying to get to the bottom of this and to learn more...thanks man.
