Simple site launched to help educate on pronunciation

[Anarax]

Never Walk By a Mistake | The Art of Manliness

To you it's simply, to me (who admittedly feels like he has undiagnosed OCD for mistakes) it's highly irritating.

No, it's how you come off. You expect people to know how to pronounce a martial art name perfectly even though students and instructors of that style mispronounce it. If you want to make a site go right ahead. However; understand how you come off when you want to use terms like "ruin". Do you know how many words you mispronounce? I'm sure algebra is one of them, but if I heard you mispronounce it I wouldn't say stop ruining it. How you come off plays a huge factor in how receptive people will be of you.

 

[TrueJim]

I think the choice of the word "ruin" was intended to be tongue-in-cheek.

Here's MY pet peeve for taekwondo pronunciation: tournaments. It's already loud and difficult to hear in tournaments, but when you're directed: "Chairt! Kunnee! Juhnbeye! Seizure!" it's really easy to miss the referee's direction.

 

[Steve]

It's PORSH.

 

[andyjeffries]

No, it's how you come off. You expect people to know how to pronounce a martial art name perfectly even though students and instructors of that style mispronounce it.

And that's who I'm hoping to help educate. It's not expecting people to know, it's telling people so that they do know. I've had an overwhelmingly positive response to the one-page site since it's launch - literally you're the only nay-sayer, and that includes people that say they've been mispronouncing it for decades. Most of them just didn't know and don't have much exposure to Koreans to learn how to pronounce the art that they named.

If you want to make a site go right ahead.

Thanks for the permission ;-)

However; understand how you come off when you want to use terms like "ruin".

Can you pronounce hyperbole? ;-)

Do you know how many words you mispronounce? I'm sure algebra is one of them, but if I heard you mispronounce it I wouldn't say stop ruining it. How you come off plays a huge factor in how receptive people will be of you.

If you heard me mispronounce a word, you would cause me to

a)research it (I wouldn't accept just your word for it, and that's why I included four videos at the end)
b)thank you
c)change my pronunciation for the future.

In that order.

 

[andyjeffries]

And yes, I realise that last post may come across as pretentious, intentionally so.

 

[Steve]

And yes, I realise that last post may come across as pretentious, intentionally so.

Oh geez. You're so pretentious. Particularly your British spelling of realize.

 

[jobo]

Having got fed up with people mispronouncing Taekwondo, I put this site live this morning. Feel free to use it to point people to when they ruin the name of our beloved art and sport:

How do you say Taekwondo?

i


I've just consulted the Cambridge English dictionary, which has an audio for how to pronounce words, and it says you are WRONG,
tae kwon do Pronunciation in English

 

[Anarax]

i


I've just consulted the Cambridge English dictionary, which has an audio for how to pronounce words, and it says you are WRONG,
tae kwon do Pronunciation in English

Stop ruining it, it's driving me crazy!!! LOL

 

[andyjeffries]

According to the announcer/MC at the Taekwondo Grand Prix last weekend, the BBC also officially pronounces it broken. He tried to educate them, but they told him to say it the broken way. I've asked him to get me the details of someone in that department to try to help them. If anyone has a contact at the Cambridge English Dictionary, I'm happy to chase them too.

 

[jobo]

According to the announcer/MC at the Taekwondo Grand Prix last weekend, the BBC also officially pronounces it broken. He tried to educate them, but they told him to say it the broken way. I've asked him to get me the details of someone in that department to try to help them. If anyone has a contact at the Cambridge English Dictionary, I'm happy to chase them too.

you are rather missing the point, once a word has become integrated into English and put in the English dictionary , that IS the,correct way to pronounce it in ENGLISH,.

you might as well go round telling people that they are miss pronouncing window, which as I'm sure you know was originally wind hole. A substantial part of English is miss pronounced words from around the world, where exactly would you stop,?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you are rather missing the point, once a word has become integrated into English and put in the English dictionary , that IS the,correct way to pronounce it in ENGLISH,.

you might as well go round telling people that they are miss pronouncing window, which should as I'm sure you know be wind hole. A substantial part of English is miss pronounced words from around the world, where exactly would you stop,

The dictionary, contrary to common belief, is not an arbiter of correctness, but a record of usage. When a pronunciation becomes common enough, it becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. That doesn't make it right or wrong, though.

 

[jobo]

The dictionary, contrary to common belief, is not an arbiter of correctness, but a record of usage. When a pronunciation becomes common enough, it becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. That doesn't make it right or wrong, though.

yes it is, other wise wee cud speeel end prunounse verds ani Wey wee fought beast, then were wuod wi bea?

 

[Steve]

Whan that aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;

 

[andyjeffries]

The dictionary, contrary to common belief, is not an arbiter of correctness, but a record of usage. When a pronunciation becomes common enough, it becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. That doesn't make it right or wrong, though.

Indeed and enough common words have changed their pronunciation to reflect the current pronunciation of the word. 15 Words Whose Pronunciation Has Changed Over Time - Vocabulary List : Vocabulary.com

So, if we can have enough people start to pronounce the word correctly (as the founder/pioneers wanted it to be pronounced), then the dictionary will eventually be updated to reflect that.

 

[Dirty Dog]

i


I've just consulted the Cambridge English dictionary, which has an audio for how to pronounce words, and it says you are WRONG,
tae kwon do Pronunciation in English

So you consult an English language dictionary to learn how to pronounce a Korean word?
Even with native born Korean speakers have already confirmed how it's pronounced?
Yeah. That makes sense.

 

[Steve]

Language is a funny thing. This subject has come up before. So, the TL;DR version is that I agree with Jobo, in that I understand how confusing this can be. Largely, convention is much more of a factor than the "correct" pronunciation in the root language.

Borrowing from my own words posted a few years back, etymology is an interesting field of study, and English is a complex language with many influences. When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, he brought a strong French influence into our language. Many English words have a French root, and while one could say that they were "borrowed," that in no way means that the word now is the same as the French word. In some cases, the English word no longer means precisely what the French word did (or does.) He and his court are largely responsible for bringing us from Middle English into the English that more closely resembles the language we all speak today.

For example, there are many words we use every day in English. The words are English words and have English meanings, even though these words came from old King William and those pesky Normans. Cinema is a common English word, taken from the French word cinematographe, which was a term taken from ancient Greek (kinema).

Or what about the term, "a la mode?" In English, the derivative does not mean the same thing as in French. In America, specifically, "a la mode" refers to adding scoop of ice cream to a piece of pie.

"Amateur" is another English word with roots in French. In the French language, it's a much more general term for someone who loves an activity or does it "for the love of" it. In American English, the term is much more specific and used as the synonym for a professional. It typically refers to someone who is not paid, but can also refer to someone who isn't very good at the activity. The word is an English word. It's pronounced differently than it would be in French, and it has a distinct definition that is not the same as its root.

Sushi is another American word borrowed from the Japanese, but I would suggest that American Sushi is NOT what you would typically find in Japan. In America, the term "sushi" refers to a uniquely American experience that overlaps with the Japanese experience in some ways. One is not better than or worse than the other. But they are different, and in America, if you went to a sushi restaurant expecting a very Japanese experience, you would be disappointed in the same way you would be expecting actual Chinese food in a Chinese restaurant. My kids went to an "authentic" noodle restaurant and coined the term "harbor mouth" from the fish breath they had afterward.

So, in this way, sushi said in America is an American word used to describe an Americanized dining experience.

Also, if anything, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the subset of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. While it's true that Oswaldo Fadda lineage is alive and well, all but a very, very few Jiu Jitsu black belts trace their lineage in some way back through the Gracies. In modern usage, most people use the term Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to indicate that they are not directly affiliated with the Gracie family. However, BJJ... particularly in America, stems from GJJ and not the other way around.

Finally, have you guys ever see this famous painting by Rene Magritte? It's called the Treachery of Images. The caption, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe," is an integral part of the piece. Translated, it means, "This is not a pipe."

This painting came to mind as we discuss symbols. One might say that it is clearly a pipe, but it's not. It's a picture, a painting. And, really, this is even more removed. It's a digital copy of a painting of a pipe. But it's still not a pipe. In the same way, Jiu Jitsu might seem to be a Japanese word, but it's not. Heck, jujutsu isn't even a Japanese word, nor is this:

These are symbols that stand for words which mean something in the language in which they are spoken. In Brazil, if you say jiu jitsu, it doesn't mean something Japanese. It means something Brazilian. And the spoken word is itself a symbol for the thing to which it refers.

 

[jobo]

So you consult an English language dictionary to learn how to pronounce a Korean word?
Even with native born Korean speakers have already confirmed how it's pronounced?
Yeah. That makes sense.

but once its in the,English dictionary it is by defintion an English word of Korean origin, to join the English words of many other origins, such is the dominance of English, the French and germans are now using the English version of French and German words, give it enough time the Koreans will start getting it right

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes it is, other wise wee cud speeel end prunounse verds ani Wey wee fought beast, then were wuod wi bea?

Nope. It's a record of how things ARE pronounced and spelled. Not a guide to how they "should be" pronounced and spelled. If something is "mispronounced" more often than not, the "mispronunciation" becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. Whether that makes it "right" or not depends how we define "right".

 

[Steve]

Nope. It's a record of how things ARE pronounced and spelled. Not a guide to how they "should be" pronounced and spelled. If something is "mispronounced" more often than not, the "mispronunciation" becomes the primary pronunciation in the dictionary. Whether that makes it "right" or not depends how we define "right".

That’s a conundrum, isn’t it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Language is a funny thing. This subject has come up before. So, the TL;DR version is that I agree with Jobo, in that I understand how confusing this can be. Largely, convention is much more of a factor than the "correct" pronunciation in the root language.

Borrowing from my own words posted a few years back, etymology is an interesting field of study, and English is a complex language with many influences. When William the Conqueror invaded England in 1066, he brought a strong French influence into our language. Many English words have a French root, and while one could say that they were "borrowed," that in no way means that the word now is the same as the French word. In some cases, the English word no longer means precisely what the French word did (or does.) He and his court are largely responsible for bringing us from Middle English into the English that more closely resembles the language we all speak today.

For example, there are many words we use every day in English. The words are English words and have English meanings, even though these words came from old King William and those pesky Normans. Cinema is a common English word, taken from the French word cinematographe, which was a term taken from ancient Greek (kinema).

Or what about the term, "a la mode?" In English, the derivative does not mean the same thing as in French. In America, specifically, "a la mode" refers to adding scoop of ice cream to a piece of pie.

"Amateur" is another English word with roots in French. In the French language, it's a much more general term for someone who loves an activity or does it "for the love of" it. In American English, the term is much more specific and used as the synonym for a professional. It typically refers to someone who is not paid, but can also refer to someone who isn't very good at the activity. The word is an English word. It's pronounced differently than it would be in French, and it has a distinct definition that is not the same as its root.

Sushi is another American word borrowed from the Japanese, but I would suggest that American Sushi is NOT what you would typically find in Japan. In America, the term "sushi" refers to a uniquely American experience that overlaps with the Japanese experience in some ways. One is not better than or worse than the other. But they are different, and in America, if you went to a sushi restaurant expecting a very Japanese experience, you would be disappointed in the same way you would be expecting actual Chinese food in a Chinese restaurant. My kids went to an "authentic" noodle restaurant and coined the term "harbor mouth" from the fish breath they had afterward.

So, in this way, sushi said in America is an American word used to describe an Americanized dining experience.

Also, if anything, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the subset of Gracie Jiu Jitsu. While it's true that Oswaldo Fadda lineage is alive and well, all but a very, very few Jiu Jitsu black belts trace their lineage in some way back through the Gracies. In modern usage, most people use the term Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to indicate that they are not directly affiliated with the Gracie family. However, BJJ... particularly in America, stems from GJJ and not the other way around.

Finally, have you guys ever see this famous painting by Rene Magritte? It's called the Treachery of Images. The caption, "Ceci n'est pas une pipe," is an integral part of the piece. Translated, it means, "This is not a pipe."

This painting came to mind as we discuss symbols. One might say that it is clearly a pipe, but it's not. It's a picture, a painting. And, really, this is even more removed. It's a digital copy of a painting of a pipe. But it's still not a pipe. In the same way, Jiu Jitsu might seem to be a Japanese word, but it's not. Heck, jujutsu isn't even a Japanese word, nor is this:

These are symbols that stand for words which mean something in the language in which they are spoken. In Brazil, if you say jiu jitsu, it doesn't mean something Japanese. It means something Brazilian. And the spoken word is itself a symbol for the thing to which it refers.

The issue is mostly one of whether we're talking about an English word borrowed from Korean (a loan word), or a Korean word. At some point it ceases to be the latter and becomes the former. Until that time, the technically correct pronunciation is from the original language. After that point, the new host language has its own correct pronunciation.