Taekwondo: is it a sport or a martial art? ( again)

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Markku P, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Let's not go crazy. Texas Hold 'Em is much more exciting to watch.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  2. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    I disagree...Strip poker is far more superior. :)
     
  3. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    This was the OP first and last post in this thread. He never came back, but he must have had fun looking.
    After over 200 posts, I went back and reread the original OP and found it interesting. He commented, gave his insight, and asked for thoughts.

    To sum it up, the paying public will determine what they want and what gives them the best bang for their buck.
    In the mid 60s people came to the dojo for SD. But, SD became boring because of the directness of the techniques, "low kicks, no protective gear", and in practice if you took a bare knuckle shot you were going down, and it never turned out good.
    Once people learned how to sue, for things we took for granted, (stitches, broken bones) things got very different. Prices for Ins, if you even had any went way up. The price of training with all the amenities, (nice bleachers, air conditioning, nice lockers, a ton of training equipment) and the economy, drove that 15.00 per month I payed years ago, to around 175.00/200.00 per month and more.
    It was said that people wanted more, yes, they could not afford to go to work with things not working well psychically. And this is very understandably so.

    It is very difficult to address and cover all that has been said, but there is a common thread running through it all.

    SD vs Sport.

    Big dojo vs store front, (garage).

    Kids over adults.

    Lots of money, little money.

    Modern ways vs traditional teaching

    In the ends my friends it is what works best for YOU, and what kind of a mark you want to leave on life and your students. Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong, just different.

    MT is meant to give insight and build up the martial arts community, not make us look like a bunch of white belts. Aside from some personal attacks, much good information has been shared, and of this I hope we can have a consensus.

    I'm not sure this thread is over yet, I have enjoyed the read, and I do hope we all come out of it intact.

    My 2 cents, enjoy the rest of your day. Wes (seasoned)
     
  4. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I'm not sure if you missed this, but I am curious as to your answer.

    Do your mates or yourself ask, "why don't they kick?" when they or you watch boxing? Or "why don't they do any striking at all?" when they or you watch judo? Or why players in those sports crouch in a particular way?

    Every rule set has just as many oddities and peculiarities that make little sense outside of the context of competition as WTF taekwondo does. Do you and those who make similar criticisms of WTF competition ask these same questions of such sports? Or of martial arts that do not train in striking at all, such as various jujutsu ryu, BJJ, or aikido, which has very minimal focus on striking?
     
  5. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    And you still haven't responded to any of this.

    The first part regarding accuracy of the 99% statistic has been picked up in Earl's thread about real world attacks, but I am curious what you have to say about the rest.
     
  6. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I think it has to do with vying over what the word TKD must mean or being 'embarrassed' over what happens elsewhere. I used to dislike Olympic rules TKD because it didn't match what I trained in, yet at the same time I felt ownership due to holding a BB in 'TKD'. It's largely the same reason why I also disliked the sine wave method in ITF TKD, or why I thought some of the ATA leadership stuff is cheesy.

    At this point none of them concern me overly much. I accept that there are several expressions of TKD and I think there's room for them all. If others enjoy it and find value in their training methods and interests, I think that's great. It may not be my cup of tea personally, but I'll worry about what happens in my dojang since I control that.
     
  7. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Did you have the same questions and critiques of other arts, such as the ones that I listed?

    If yes, did you repeatedly raise them in those arts' forum sections and dismiss everything that practitioners of those arts said to you, and repeatedly try to force a delineation in those arts/styles between sport and art?
     
  8. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    To those who are following this thread who are only familiar with WTF sparring via youtube or having seen a match or two, but have never actually trained in KKW/WTF taekwondo, I posted a thread that answers the questions that are repeatedly posed here.

    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...t-is-the-way-that-it-is?p=1510386#post1510386

    It is pinned as a resource in the sticky section. If you really are interested in knowing why the WTF rule set is the way that it is and why participants adopt the various strategies seen in WTF matches, it is all there.

    One comment that I will make is that WTF sparring is not, in my experience, utilized as SD training in KKW schools; that is usually a separate part of the curriculum, and WTF sparring is not presented as SD to students of those schools.
     
  9. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    No, and I can't fully explain what the difference is. I still participate in the biggest judo forum on the web from time to time, and I think there are less flame wars there for whatever reason. Maybe it is because the sport side of judo is strongly integrated into the art, even with participation being a requirement for rank advancement in many cases.

    TKD is still fractured comparatively IMO. Yeah, there are millions and millions of KKW taekwondoin worldwide. However, I still get the sense that that are huge amounts of people outside of the umbrella in the US, and certainly in my area. And if these people are 'true believers' in their methods, it's all too easy to see where the disagreement and conflict can come from. Finally, it should be pointed out that it works the other way too - intolerance is a two way street.
     
  10. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Perhaps. It could be that judo is more unified, likely due in part to judo having a half century head start and likely having worked out many of the issues seen in TKD.

    No idea as to how huge or not huge the numbers may be; I know that WTF and ITF figures for dan promotions have been posted in past threads, but that does not account for independent schools or ATA/ITA (or whatever the ITA calls itself now) schools. At least in Maryland, the presence of the other taekwondo federations is virtually nil. Jhoon Rhee has maybe six schools scattered throughout Maryland, DC, and Virginia, but I can drive to ten KKW schools on the way to any one of them. So to a great extent, the perception of huge amounts may vary by location.

    That aside, I do not see equity on the two way street that you speak of. Pretty much all of the bashing is aimed at the KKW/WTF on this forum. The most negativity that is ITF specific that I see is usually a response rather than preemptive, and is usually, if not always, in regards to General Choi.

    I honestly cannot think of a single instance where the actual Chang Hon style or ITF sparring style has been disrespected or knocked by KKW/WTF folks. Not saying that it hasn't happened, but I cannot think of any off hand. Most often, I see people saying things about KKW/WTF that are either inaccurate or untrue and who have no interest in hearing anything to the contrary.
     
  11. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    You know, most people realize that boxing doesn't include rules and that judo competition omits the very limited strikes found in that art in the first place so your question really is moot. Taekwon-Do includes both hand and foot techniques in its sparring competitions so Ralph's friends are right to ask where the punching is.

    People say punching is more pronounced today than it was in the 80s and 90s in KKW competitions. I suppose. My KKW instructor in college was an international referee and said that in 10 years or so of experience he'd seen six punches scored at WTF events. Six. In that sense there was no where to go but up :) I've read your sticky. The WTF can make whatever rules they want. But that doesn't mean people aren't going to ask about them. I've had people ask why the ITF doesn't do this or that in its competitions. The only thing to do is try to educate them, not get defensive.

    I don't know about Ralph, but I have heard many, many people ask questions about MMA and BJJ rules. Not as much today as 10 years ago but the questions still linger. It's no big deal.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  12. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Maybe. To be upfront, judo has its own organizational squabbles. There are several certifiying bodies alone in the US, and depending on your interests (Olympics for example) one can be more advantageous than the others.

    I think the deep south and flyover country have more equitable representation in the types of TKD available in their area. Equitable in this case
    should be taken as 'spreading the wealth' more evenly rather than any indication on my part of 'fairness'.

    There are examples I can remember, though not necessarily aimed at ITF TKD, but I don't wish to rehash them here. We can go to PM or not. Preferably not since they are really unimportant in the big scheme of things other than to note that extremely fervent advocacy of your own style or system can by extension serve to detract from others. It's like this... if we're friendly neighbors yet you tell me how great your yard is every single day, soon enough I begin to see that your point is perhaps that my yard is a dump. It's human nature and I don't necessarily think the affront is all in the mind of the receiver.

    Most digs against the ITF that I have seen here revolve around their sine wave motion or about General Choi and whatever personal or leadership failings he might have had.
     
  13. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Sure. Once or twice. But if he'd be a billionaire if he had a dollar for each time one of his mates asked, then either he's not answering the question or they're ignoring the answer.

    Asking questions is fine; but when it is the same people asking the same questions and getting the same answers over an over again, the issue is no longer a lack of education.


    Again, if the people asking the questions were not asking them over and over over a period of months or in some cases, years, and getting the same answers over and over again, then it wouldn't be an issue at all. People who legitimately don't know ask, get an answer, and are done. There is a small but persistently vocal group of people, some of whom don't even practice the art, who raise the same criticisms and questions in the TKD section over and over and no answer given is ever good enough for them.
     
  14. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    TKD punching is right next to the Kyokushin punching. I don't see why this is such a hang up for people. The rules say that you can punch to the body. So what is the problem. Just because the sport rules dictate no punching to the head does not mean TKD schools do not practice it. The point is not moot about judo because it does have those techniques so why are they not questioned as to why they are not allowed in competition.

    I don't believe it is being defensive so much as frustrated. People don't seem to ask because they don't understand the rules so much as they seem to ask so the can have reason to tear down WTF sparring.

    How many of them turn around and say that MMA or BJJ is worthless because they don't allow this technique or that technique?
     
  15. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I'd agree to that. One thing that I have noticed about sine wave is that not all Chang Hon people subscribe to it or seem to agree on how to explain it.

    The General Choi stuff is unfortunate; it has no bearing on the quality of the system or its practitioners and in any case, the man is dead now.
     
  16. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    There you go. Kukki taekwondoin generally don't really bother or care about taekwondo different than their own. They just concentrate on what they are doing. On the other hand, it seems that those that are different from kukki taekwondo come out and constantly and consistently criticize kukki taekwondo. Even you have expressed your complaints. So the question is, who is really calling who's yard a dump.


    And this happens only within the context of General Choi fans stating General Choi gets the credit for this or that. In that case, it is important not to allow misinformation to continue to flow. That doesn't do anyone any good, not even the General Choi fans.
     
  17. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    exactly. these other non-kukki taekwondoin have the resentment and chip on their shoulder with regard to kukki taekwondo, not the other way around. But I suppose that comes with being the big kid on the block, some people want to tear you down.
     
  18. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Or he's talking about different people. Or they simply can't believe a striking martial art would de-emphasize hand strikes. Or any number of other reasons.

    Maybe, maybe not. If you have that big of a problem with it though, you should maybe ignore the person in question when they bring up the topic. Obviously it's something that really annoys you.

    You might want to consider going back and looking to see how many threads there are on sine wave here :) Really, you should either ignore whoever you have a problem with when they ask a question or simply accept the fact that some people thinks WTF rules are stupid (for any number of reasons). But if you really expect things to change then you will have to learn to live with disappointment because that is rarely the case. Trust me, I know :) Can't tell you the number of times I've discussed sine wave with non-ITF'ers who after getting an explanation just begin right back at the original objection they have. C'est la vie.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  19. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I'm sure that if Ralph decides to respond, he can clarify that.

    It isn't a question of personal exchanges. It is an endemic pattern on this board (maybe others, but I don't post on those).

    No expectations that it will change, and again, it isn't a question of personal exchanges but an endemic pattern on this board.

    As for the sine wave discussions, the same would apply; if they don't understand it, then get an answer, either be happy with the answer or if they don't understand the answer, say so. But to continue leveling the same criticism over and over again is just silly as it is with regards to sine wave as it is with shihap kyorugi.

    As for a sine wave explanation, if you would be willing to describe it in another thread, I would be happy to learn more about it. I think I know how it works and why it is done; I have no criticism of it; it is a linear method of power generation from what I can see, and should work just fine. Regarding how it looks, I've seen videos of Chang Hon tul performed with sine wave, and while it looks different from what I do, the aesthetics of it shouldn't drive the discussion.
     
  20. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Well, in Kyokushin you can't punch to the head but you can use a variety of punches, unlike in WTF competition. Or has the WTF changed that, too? Last I knew it was straight punches to the hogu only. In Kyokushin you can throw jabs, upper cuts, hooks, etc. As for people getting hung up on it or not, who cares?

    Regarding Kukkiwon TKD school practicing a variety of punching methods, I'm sure it depends on the school. The school I trained at for a couple years in college focused primarily on kicking :) Hand techniques were, while not an after thought, not emphasized nearly as much. In ITF schools there's a necessity of practicing many different types of hand techniques. This would be true even if it was a school dedicated almost exclusively to sport competition because the rule set allows for a variety of hand techniques to a variety of target areas.

    Well, no. The conversation revolves around techniques allowed in sparring, or sparring-like for judo, competition. People don't ask why judoka don't just punch the other guy in the face because they can't (now if you were talking about judo kata and people were ommitting punches that were called for then that really would be a legitimate question to ask!). In WTF events you explicitly can punch the other guy. And if you tell me it happens all the time I'll believe you ;) But the fact is people wouldn't be asking about it if 1) it did happen a lot, or 2) the rules didn't allow it.

     

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