Should the 10 commandments be allowed in gov't buildings?

[ginshun]

What I actually object to isn't the little crosses on the sides of the roads (which are put there by private individuals, by the way), and it isn't the display of the Ten Commandments in a reasonable way, and it isn't even a string or two of the Christmas lights that bring a nice touch of paganism into a holiday. Nor do I mind students having religious beliefs--if anything, I encourage them to express their beliefs in a polite and intelligent fashion, both in speech and in writing.

What I actually object to, for starters, is the government imposition of fundamentalist, protestant beliefs on everybody else, especially when they use taxpayers' money and State power to do it.

After that--speaking as a scholarly type--I object to the gross distortion of our history and our present culture that the guys pushing for school prayer rely upon. I don't much like kids getting a pack of lies about their country's history, and I don't much like them being systematically taught that only right-wing Christians are religious, and I don't much care to have students taught that only the Almighty Dollar and blind faith mean anything, and I especially don't much care for seeing the endless pursuit of money and religious intolerance directly connected to our little jihad in Iraq.

After that, I dislike very much having a born-again President (an issue he raises all the time) who relied on his family's money to get him where he is and who is more than a little Johnny-come-lately to the whole morality thing, endlessly telling the rest of us that we ought to shut up and get in line as he pushes for his religious beliefs in schools and courthouses, "reforms," the government around his own faith and nobody else's, and trumpets about non-issues like gay marriage so he can get himself re-elected on a platform of fear and hatred.

After that, it bothers me a bit that anybody who reads a book and (not often enough, to be sure) thinks about issues rather than just repeating what they've been told gets attacked as a pointy-head intellectual, if not a limp-wristed girly-man who Hates America. I suppose it's because I recognize the repetition of politically-correct propaganda when I see it.

But most of all, I object to the gross distortion of reality, of science, of public life, of history that's going on these days. And that isn't happening because of pointy-head leftist intellectuals, or Catholics, or Jews, or Muslims, or even the majority of Christians.

It's happening because a substantial minority of right-of-center, conservative, fundamentalist Americans have become aware that the country changed forever a couple of decades back, and they can't figure out how to reconcile their religious beliefs with their faith in capitalism, and they want a scapegoat for the way corporate capitalism is changing their lives and their country for the worse. So, they're pushing for big rocks Jehovah's Commandments written on them, because they think that'll solve things.

What's my problem with the scuzzy likes of Michael Savage and Pat Robertson? They're the ones who are getting paid and rewarded very, very well for leading the charge to ignorance.

Sheesh, and you act like my crack about your blood pressure was out of left field. Calm down a little before you have a coranary.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I expected.

But then--and here I'm going to be a little mean--ad hominem attacks are a helluva lot easier than studying history and culture so you'll know what you're talking about, or thinking through issues so you don't end up spouting the politically-correct party line.

When was it, exactly, that a little passion in the discussion of ideas became a Bad Thing? used to be, in the traditional America I grew up in, that this was what we expected of the discussion of ideas.

Personally, I blame Wal-Mart. Or perhaps it's the case, now, that you're only allowed to believe in anything if you're the scuzzy likes of Jimmy Sawggert, weeping to get your parish back after you've been caught for the second time in a motel with two hookers, weeping so you can fire off your next attack on that there teacher, down the high school, what is teachin' evil-lution.

 

[Phoenix44]

Also, as I explain to my kids all the time, having a level-headed but heated discussion doesn't necessarily mean that anyone is angry with anyone, nor that it's raising anyone's blood pressure.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Ginshun,

I'd like to point out that Robert, and I, and a few others in this forum, are [almost] old enough to be your parents and thus grew up in a vastly different time and country (as Robert so eloquently, if at great length, pointed out.)

Perspective figures greatly in a discussion such as this.

Back in the Dark Ages when we were children, there was a strict (read: rigid) moral code which was adhered to by all. No one spoke of *things* which were deemed *inappropriate* in *polite* society -- and it was perfectly okay to use what are now considered derogatory terms for certain groups and persons, which I shan't go into here. There was a distinct class hierarchy in place until people like Martin Luther King and the leaders of the Women's Movement and the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) spoke out and took action to change things. The Establishment was broken --- and I believe that Robert is saying that The Establishment is attempting a come-back in the forms of extreme capitalism and fundamentalism as promulgated by Mr. Bush and his cronies. So -- do we want to return to those days of yesteryear (raise your hand if you recognize that one), which certainly was not a kinder, gentler era under the facade displayed for years, or do we want to continue with what all those people fought and died for?

As a 30 year old, you are living in a society formed by us. That's what we all wanted for ourselves and our children -- a better place and better opportunities. The prospect of the encroachment of conservative thought as the ruling philosophy in this country -- possibly turning the clock back to the Fifties -- is frightening.

 

[agatanai atsilahu]

As long as the federal govt. advertises the the fair and equal treatment of all religions/beliefs, and as long as that same govt. promotes the freedom of all to believe as they wish on religious issues or doctrines, then the commandments should not be posted about in federal buildings, as it appears biased. If all are to treated equally , including atheists, then no religious icon or statements of any kind prevalent to any single belief should be placed in govt buildings. (Normal blood pressure, honest )

 

[ginshun]

Ginshun,

I'd like to point out that Robert, and I, and a few others in this forum, are [almost] old enough to be your parents and thus grew up in a vastly different time and country (as Robert so eloquently, if at great length, pointed out.)

Perspective figures greatly in a discussion such as this.

Back in the Dark Ages when we were children, there was a strict (read: rigid) moral code which was adhered to by all. No one spoke of *things* which were deemed *inappropriate* in *polite* society -- and it was perfectly okay to use what are now considered derogatory terms for certain groups and persons, which I shan't go into here. There was a distinct class hierarchy in place until people like Martin Luther King and the leaders of the Women's Movement and the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) spoke out and took action to change things. The Establishment was broken --- and I believe that Robert is saying that The Establishment is attempting a come-back in the forms of extreme capitalism and fundamentalism as promulgated by Mr. Bush and his cronies. So -- do we want to return to those days of yesteryear (raise your hand if you recognize that one), which certainly was not a kinder, gentler era under the facade displayed for years, or do we want to continue with what all those people fought and died for?

As a 30 year old, you are living in a society formed by us. That's what we all wanted for ourselves and our children -- a better place and better opportunities. The prospect of the encroachment of conservative thought as the ruling philosophy in this country -- possibly turning the clock back to the Fifties -- is frightening.

Honestly, my last comment was in jest, I had no intention of offending Robert or anyone else, if I have done so I am sorry.

Obviously he and I see things differently, and I am fine with that. What fun is having a debate with someone who has the same opinion as you?

As for you guys creating the country / environment that we now live in, sure I can go along with that. That doesn't however give your opinions more wieght than mine. If you want to be disgruntled against the government for imposing conservative values on you and society in general (as robert so obviously is) then more power to you, rant and rave all you want. Personally I don't think things are all that bad right now, and if you ask me American society in general is a little too sensative and PC today.

I don't want to live in a counrty were all the decisions are made by the Michael Savages and Jerry Fallwells of the world, but I sure as hell don't want them all made by the Barbra Boxers and Ted Kennedys either.


and just as an aside, Robert's constant tone of condescension doesn't make me want to take his opinions any more seriously.

 

[DuneViking]

Personally, I blame Wal-Mart. Or perhaps it's the case, now, that you're only allowed to believe in anything if you're the scuzzy likes of Jimmy Sawggert, weeping to get your parish back after you've been caught for the second time in a motel with two hookers, weeping so you can fire off your next attack on that there teacher, down the high school, what is teachin' evil-lution.
rmcrobertson

Big Amen there! When the people are placated, by say, enough to survive and have a few cheap extras, it seems they-we- do not pay attention to things unless there is a big noise about it. I think the reference to the 10 Coms was a big noise for the extreme groups as referred to in previous posts when it should be reference to the fact that there is a higher authority from which we derive our ideas of right and wrong and they should be fair and just, even though fair and just are not always compatible. I like the suggestion too of other codes as well as the 10 coms, it supports the idea of just and fair, above and beyond the ideas of individual interpretation. I think it was, and should be, an ideal attempt to say all must answer to the laws we use in the same way without favoritism etc, like the blindfold on the LAdy Justice holding the scales.


As a 30 year old, you are living in a society formed by us. That's what we all wanted for ourselves and our children -- a better place and better opportunities. The prospect of the encroachment of conservative thought as the ruling philosophy in this country -- possibly turning the clock back to the Fifties -- is frightening.
kenpo tiger

I'd just say each generation has to make its own contribution, we did not form this society, we added our contribution to that of our father's of the WWII and Korean War era, just as they added to their father's world. Without those stresses, we can relax a bit and not be so 'uptight'. Unfortunately, that also can go too far. Ultimately, misuse can come from either the right or the left.

In summation, I would say, let us vote on such things as the 10 coms in public places. I would again suggest that they may be a good idea, especially if part of a multiple society historic display of laws and values from whatever cultures advanced such ideas-greek, roman, babylonian, chinese, viking, what have you, if it is voted on and passes. It could allow us see how we have moved from trial by fire to trial by jury and the like.

 

[Melissa426]

I guess I just don't see it as "extreme." I see it as pretty basic. You don't get more purely Christian than a nativity scene, do you?

I don't know about that. Unmarried Jewish teenager gets pregnant. With her Jewish fiancee in attendance, she gives birth to a baby in a stable in the city of David (a Jewish king).

I am surprised fundamentalists celebrate Christmas at all! I think they would prefer Jesus's Jewishness be ignored or at least not talked about.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Reading a passion for ideas and issues, faith in education, and a belief that you should know what you're talking about as, "a tone of condescencion," or, "ranting and raving," is symptomatic of the New America. Hell, if you had any of that stuff, you'd stop shopping.

2. I think KT was trying to point out that some folks are attacking precisely the traditional American values--equality, tolerance, respect for religious beliefs, respect for learning and for science--that we keep hearing Bush et al trumpeting about.

3. Sorry--I'm old-fashioned. I think it is a Bad Thing when the President of the United States pushes that old-time religion with one hand, and torture with the other.

 

[ginshun]

1. Reading a passion for ideas and issues, faith in education, and a belief that you should know what you're talking about as, "a tone of condescencion," or, "ranting and raving," is symptomatic of the New America. Hell, if you had any of that stuff, you'd stop shopping.

If you look at your post from yesterday, and it doesn't look like a rant to you, then I am not sure what your idea of a rant is. I don't even know what you mean by the shopping thing, but I suppose that is because I am not as smart or edumacated as you are.

2. I think KT was trying to point out that some folks are attacking precisely the traditional American values--equality, tolerance, respect for religious beliefs, respect for learning and for science--that we keep hearing Bush et al trumpeting about.

I have nothing against any of those things, if I have given the impression otherwise, it was not my intention.

3. Sorry--I'm old-fashioned. I think it is a Bad Thing when the President of the United States pushes that old-time religion with one hand, and torture with the other.

I don't know that I would agree that he is exactly pushing either one, but then again I am not going to say that I even begin to understand half the crap the W does. As old-time religion and torture, I don't think too highly of either one, but the two pretty much fit hand in hand if you ask me. Throughout history, Christians haven't exactly been the most tolerant of people.

 

[Ray]

After reading all the good and varied opinions of so many people in this thread I have finally been given enough information to make a recommendation: Don't post the 10 commandments in gov't buildings; but do post the address in very large letters on the outside of the building so that we can easily know where we are.

 

[OUMoose]

After reading all the good and varied opinions of so many people in this thread I have finally been given enough information to make a recommendation: Don't post the 10 commandments in gov't buildings; but do post the address in very large letters on the outside of the building so that we can easily know where we are.

Even better, reconstruct all the government buildings into the shape of GIANT thumbs, with the entrance beneath them. That way we really know where we are.

 

[DuneViking]

After reading all the good and varied opinions of so many people in this thread I have finally been given enough information to make a recommendation: Don't post the 10 commandments in gov't buildings; but do post the address in very large letters on the outside of the building so that we can easily know where we are.

ROTFLMAOHMBWTIME !!! Can we get an AMEN!!?? Hallowlouisyaa!

That is great thought Ray!!!

 

[kenpo tiger]

After reading all the good and varied opinions of so many people in this thread I have finally been given enough information to make a recommendation: Don't post the 10 commandments in gov't buildings; but do post the address in very large letters on the outside of the building so that we can easily know where we are.

A most sensible suggestion. And I'll second that with an 'AMEN'!

 

[Loki]

Ironically, the ten commandments have a Jewish background, not a Christian one, but I don't hear the Jews making much of an issue one way or the other.

Stupidly enough, Judaism is incorporated into Israeli law, so there's no need to fuss if you can't simply see the ten commandments.

The Ten Commandments should definitely not be in government buildings. The first two are offensive to anyone who doesn't believe in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God.

Some others are simply not always correct. Should you respect parents that beat you? No, not really. Respect has to be earned, even by your parents.

The general problem with the commandments is that they're all given in God's name. Don't kill because God said so, don't steal because God said so. You shouldn't do these things because you're stepping all over other people's basic rights, and that makes it wrong, not the word of God.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Stupidly enough, Judaism is incorporated into Israeli law, so there's no need to fuss if you can't simply see the ten commandments.

Okay -- and your point here?

 

[Loki]

Okay -- and your point here?

My point is that the ten commandments are already part of the law. So if the purpose of hanging the commandments in a courtroom, for example, is to uphold justice in the spirit of the commandments, then it's pointless in Israel because justice is based on the commandments.

If you're question referred to why I bring this up in the first place, I'm just venting some anger

~ Loki

 

[Kane]

I'm not a Christian, or Jewish. So I should be against removing the ten commandments right? Wrong.

Well personally I could care less, well at least I thought that way at first. However I am starting to be more for it. Why? The reasons are simple;

1. It isn't hurting anyone; it being there only promotes better behavior.

2. It is a doctrine that basically outlines the most basic human morality such as the wrongs of murder, theft, adultery, ect. ect.

3. It is a complete waist of time when we can be focusing on more serious things in our country than this. As said in reason 1, it does not hurt anyone, and I am going to explain in reason 4 why it will actually lower the crime rate by at least 1%. Waiting our time on something that will help the nation because of some Atheists want are offended by the words of it, not worth our time. I personally wouldn't care if we put Buddhist or Muslim doctrines all around the country and these atheists should view them as a "mythical decoration", and pay no attention to it.

4. The most important one. As mentioned in reason 1, it promotes only better behavior in society, not worst. It may not stop all criminals for doing wrong, but at least 1 out of every 100 criminals can look at this document before they commit a crime and it might prevent it. Let us say that man named Jack is about to kill another man named Bob. Let us say that while walking with his big shotgun to kill Bob for whatever reason Jack sees the 10 Commandments in front and reads the words "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Jack is reminded that killing is wrong, and Jack decides not to kill Bob. Thus the crime called murder is prevented. I know this won't work on many criminals; in fact it might not work for majority of the criminals. However those few criminals that see these words might change their minds in killing them. I hope it will at least help 1/10 or 1/100 of the criminals in America. That enough is to save a life or relationship (relationship-wise for someone considering adultery).

 

[Blindside]

4. The most important one. As mentioned in reason 1, it promotes only better behavior in society, not worst. It may not stop all criminals for doing wrong, but at least 1 out of every 100 criminals can look at this document before they commit a crime and it might prevent it. Let us say that man named Jack is about to kill another man named Bob. Let us say that while walking with his big shotgun to kill Bob for whatever reason Jack sees the 10 Commandments in front and reads the words "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Jack is reminded that killing is wrong, and Jack decides not to kill Bob. Thus the crime called murder is prevented. I know this won't work on many criminals; in fact it might not work for majority of the criminals. However those few criminals that see these words might change their minds in killing them. I hope it will at least help 1/10 or 1/100 of the criminals in America.

By that logic we should put up "An it harm none, do what thou will" on every streetcorner. That would cut down on assaults, drug use, murder....
Think the Christian right would go for that?

Lamont

 

[loki09789]

Since it is in the news, I thought I would get some other peoples opinions on it.

Personally, I am not a Christian, and I am not going to display them in my house or anything, but they don't offend me either. I think that if you are walking through a courthouse, and you are offended just by seeing a monument with them on then you really need to get a life.

So, I guess my opinion is to just leave them there and not even bother with the whole thing, but I am not going to shed a tear if they are taken out either.

What I do think, is that the whole case is a waste of time, and the Supreme Court really should have something better to worry about.

But that is just one mans opinion, what do you guys think?

Let's look at how the text is being used:

1. Is it there as an endorsement of Judeo/Christian values above all others?

2. Is it there as a representation of one of the foundations for law/values that this country was built on?

3. Is it a representation of the local communities values and moral structure?

People have to be willing to see the text as simply a moral code and NOT just a religious text. I have found 'wisdom' in Buddhist/Muslim/Native American (Iroquois/Hodenoshownee) values (as did Ben Franklin)/Christian/Animistic....you name it. There is a core of human decency and values that any of these specific codes can be lumped under.

We are a NATION OF DIVERSITY, fine. Why do we waste so much time complaining about the differences instead of focusing on finding common ground?

Muslim moral structure shares a common heritage with Judeo/Christian values. Some of the Native American beliefs/tales were inspired by Christian contact. Jews were inspired by Greek mythos, ......

First and foremost we are all citizens of the same country. Divisiveness clogs and bogs down an already intentionally slow governmental system.....If government is going to bicker over something while I am paying for the man hours let's devote more time to resolving medicaid/medicare and Social Security instead of arguing over a rock with words that, taken as wisdom and not Religion, people would generally agree make a pretty good message.