Shotokan rank of Kwan Founders

[jim777]

My brother's Shotokan teacher studied with the Funakoshis in Japan after WWII, and my understanding is that 5th Dan was it; as high as you could go. There were no higher ranks until the 60's, likely in response to higher ranks being awarded in other styles (a 7th Dan has to better than a 5th Dan, right?). My brother's teacher actually split with the JKA when ranks above 5th Dan were approved and awarded, as he had received his 5th from one of Funakoshi Sensei's sons and thought a 6th Dan was a sacriledge in Shotokan. So, a 4th Dan in the 40's and 50's could very easily be seen as far more difficult to attain than a 4th Dan currently is in Shotokan or TKD. (I don't mean to disparage in any way any current students of Dan rank in Shotokan or TKD, just to point out what was the highest available rank during Funakoshi Sensei's time). And as you all likely know already, Funakoshi Sensei did not like people describing their rank as anything other than Black Belt when they were above Shodan, as he saw karate as an art, not a competition. If you were told people you were Sandan, you might have been seen as rather shallow by Funakoshi Sensei, so that was generally avoided.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Generally, unless the system has continuing curriculum, ranks above fourth and fifth dan are administrative and/or honorary ranks. Realistically, unless you have a huge organization, there isn't much need for ranks above fourth or fifth anyway.

I can see where if an organization is particularly large where having 6th - 9th dan ranks is administratively useful.

Now, I don't have a problem with ranks over fifth, or think them to be hokey. I do think that there seem to be so many 9th and 10th dan grand masters and such out there that both rank and title have lost a lot of their rarity and meaning within the MA community.

But I think that that has more to do with self promoters breaking off and starting their own orgs and bestowing these ranks upon themselves. After all, they're the head of an organization, so of course, he would have that.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

funny thing Daniel, you might remember, not that long ago on the Chuck Norris thread, i posted that IMO "All 8th Dans are honorary" and boy they jumped in my butt with both feet.

it made me chuckle at the time, it still does, cuz you are absolutely correct.

 

[exile]

It's very similar to the situation in the academic world. The only really important distinctions are assistant professor (untenured, highly vulnerable); associate professor (tenured, safe from arbitrary firing, but not viewed as totally human by the administration and the more self-satisfied amongst the full professoriate) and full prof (fully human in everyone's eyes, and very possibly burnt out). On top of this there are things called, Distinguished Scholars (reserved for full profs, mostly), Distinguished University Professor (even more bragging rights than Distinguished Scholars) and Institute Professor (at places like MIT; typically there is only one, or at most a handful; major bragging rights). But once you get above full prof, nothing counts for very much in terms of academic achievement. It's all fancy dress uniforms, a kind of academic Ruritanian Guard outfitting in gold braid and feathers in your special cap and handsome salary increases... but for a lot of people, the heavy lifting comes in going from associate to full, and after that, it's pretty much a costume party with titles.

Weird, how it's not enough to know something—there have to be trophies, medals and a marching band in your honor just because you know it. The human need for reassurance that yes, you really are OK never ceases to baffle me... past a certain point, why is it necesary? Are people really that insecure? :idunno:

 

[dancingalone]

Anyone ever heard of having rank tied into how many students you have? My niece's TKD instructor was a little surprised to learn that I hold a sandan in karate but I have comparatively few students. He thought I would have more to my credit, a lot more. :angel:

 

[IcemanSK]

Anyone ever heard of having rank tied into how many students you have? My niece's TKD instructor was a little surprised to learn that I hold a sandan in karate but I have comparatively few students. He thought I would have more to my credit, a lot more. :angel:

I've heard of this amongst ATA folks some years back. I don't know if it's still the case.

 

[bluekey88]

Are people really that insecure? :idunno:

yes.

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm wondering if we can pin down some sources that would show if the Kwan Founders had rank in Shotokan and what that rank might have been. I am looking to see how far the Kwan Founders progressed through the system before they founded their kwans.

I think this is an interesting academic question. Like most of us here, I'd really want to know. For me, it's because I'm a trivia nut. The sad part is, I don't think we'll get definitive answers to the question. As exile has pointed out, it becomes a "bragging rights" issue for the current Kwan students. Which is also sad. If the founder of your Kwan was higher ranked in Shotokan than mine it's simply an interesting fact. It should merely increase our wealth of knowledge, not puff out our chests. The KMA's are short on this kind of history for history's sake as it is.

 

[Twin Fist]

not really, i know a guy that is 9th in kenpo, and 9th in kajukenbo, and has, in his entire life, promoted less than 10 people to blackbelt

 

[exile]

I think this is an interesting academic question. Like most of us here, I'd really want to know. For me, it's because I'm a trivia nut. The sad part is, I don't think we'll get definitive answers to the question.

Very like not, alas.

Part of the problem is that in any country whose soil has been an actual battleground, there is a massive loss of documentary records (the toll on Japanese historical material from incendiary aerial bombardment can only be imagined). But also, I suspect record-keeping on belt ranks and suchlike was probably just not kept as systematically then as it is now. That was still relatively early days for the whole setup. Funakoshi got to Japan at the beginning of the '20s and probably adapted Kano's judo-rank belt system to his own system at that time, or within a short time after. But from what I've read about that era, including descriptions by people who were part of it (or students of those people who'd heard stories about the early days), record-keeping and the mechanics were somewhat informal. And the practice of adding stripes to the belt to indicate the dan level achieved didn't come about till a good deal later. As I understand it, Funakoshi himself was not keen on the display of higher dan ranks through that or any other graphic means.

All this is going to work together to make the chance of a definite answer relatively small in many cases. I too would really like to know, just for sheer curiosity's sake, but I don't think we're going to get beyond speculation, in most cases....

 

[Kwan Jang]

Just a quick note on the sidebar this thread took earlier, not all systems use high dan ranks as a n honorary or administrative position (though many do). Some systems/orgs. have not only curriculum above fifth dan, but also make you work your rear off to earn them.

 

[Cirdan]

Anyone ever heard of having rank tied into how many students you have? My niece's TKD instructor was a little surprised to learn that I hold a sandan in karate but I have comparatively few students. He thought I would have more to my credit, a lot more. :angel:

I don`t know about rank as per se but I remember certain grandmasters wearing HUGE gold embroderies on their shoulders for claiming 1000 students. However all traces and pictures of this on the web seem to have disappeared.. I can see why.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

funny thing Daniel, you might remember, not that long ago on the Chuck Norris thread, i posted that IMO "All 8th Dans are honorary" and boy they jumped in my butt with both feet.

it made me chuckle at the time, it still does, cuz you are absolutely correct.

I remember that thread! And here was my response to you:

Personally, I see anything much over fourth degree as administrative degrees. I mean no disrespect to any of you who have them. I mean administrative degrees in the sense that they are geared towards those who are school owners or who wish to have a greater role in whatever federation they are a part of.

If all you want to do is run a school and teach students, you really don't need to have a ninth degree, though it does look mighty fine in your school literature.

For KKW instructors, you need to be fourth dan to sign dan certs, which is what 99% of the students who come through the door are looking to earn (hopefully, rather than just receive in exchange for testing fees).

I certainly don't frown upon those who choose to test for higher degrees; I don't have any aspiriations beyond that of school owner, while others do. For some, it is seen as a part of continued study in the art, and that is just fine.

I still feel that way. I think that KKW titles fifth dan as master, and that would be pretty cool. Given that my aspiration is to be a school owner (still), I consider having the official rank of master through an org as being beneficial. Beyond that, I just want to practice and teach as well as I can.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just a quick note on the sidebar this thread took earlier, not all systems use high dan ranks as a n honorary or administrative position (though many do). Some systems/orgs. have not only curriculum above fifth dan, but also make you work your rear off to earn them.

Yes. That was why I said, "unless there was continuing curiculum." But it does merit restating (thank you for that). It is very easy to lump every rank of every art into the same category. I think that it is human nature to want neat categories for everything, and when something doesn't fit, we find the closest one and make it fit (look at the categories in record stores).

Daniel