I'm wondering if we can pin down some sources that would show if the Kwan Founders had rank in Shotokan and what that rank might have been. I am looking to see how far the Kwan Founders progressed through the system before they founded their kwans.
Shotokan rank of Kwan Founders
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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CDKJudoka
Purple Belt
I think most were between 1st Dan and 3rd Dan. None were higher than that.
I know I'v eseen that info posted on MT before...not sure where.
I think an even more interesting question is to what extent did the various Kwan founders maintain a relationship/contact with Shotokan instructors after leaving Japan/founding their schools?
Peace,
Erik
I think an even more interesting question is to what extent did the various Kwan founders maintain a relationship/contact with Shotokan instructors after leaving Japan/founding their schools?
Peace,
Erik
I don't believe that Hwang Kee for one held any Shotokan rank.
dancingalone
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Good topic. I have a feeling that exact documentation may prove hard to come by. Here at least is one account that no one seems to disagree with.
http://kimsookarate.com/contributions/yoonstory.html
Byung In Yoon who founded the YMCA Kwon Bop Bu (which later turned in the Chang Moo Kwan under the guidance of his students) was recognized as a 4th dan Shihan by Kanken Toyama of Shudokan karate.
http://kimsookarate.com/contributions/yoonstory.html
Byung In Yoon who founded the YMCA Kwon Bop Bu (which later turned in the Chang Moo Kwan under the guidance of his students) was recognized as a 4th dan Shihan by Kanken Toyama of Shudokan karate.
dancingalone
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Yup. Not likely if he learned the Pinan forms from a book as he stated.
Miles
Senior Master
I believe GM Lee, Won Kuk held a 4th dan which was the highest rank Funakoshi had given at the time. Funakoshi was 5th dan. My understanding is that is why in KMA, the 4th dan is viewed as a "master."
GM Lee returned to Japan with his family during the Korean Conflict. I have heard that his 2 sons were black belt members of the JKA (which is not surprising because even though GM Lee was reputedly weathy by the standards at the time, he would not have qualified by virtue of his Korean birth to be a member of the "old boys network" which later became the Shotokai).
I recall at one point trying hard to find out what rank BB Byung Jik Ro earned under GF, but even the most detailed accounts of his career I was able to find never got more specific than 'Black Belt'.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #9
4th dan is about the highest I've seen. Although I've read other things on the internet that claim that no one got any higher then 2nd. I wonder how long it took back then in order to earn dan rank? Now, it will take you a good 15 years of study to achieve 4th dan. At least 8-10 years for second. If these Koreans went to Japan for University, is it feasible for them to claim any higher then 2nd?
I really wish it was possible to find some documentation. I wonder if it would be possible to contact the JKA about this?
I really wish it was possible to find some documentation. I wonder if it would be possible to contact the JKA about this?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #10
I read in an interview with Lee Won Kuk that Hwang Kee trained with him at the time of the founding of the Moo Duk Kwan. In the Chung Do Kwan, which is basically Shotokan at that time, Lee reported that Hwang earned 6th gup.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #11
I've read that the Song Moo Kwan founder was perhaps the highest ranked Korean Karateka. I've seen no documentation of that, however.
Surely someone must have a record, no? Certificates were issued, and these would have been very carefully handled... I'm actually a bit baffled that that information seems to be as hard to get hold of as it is.
dancingalone
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I'm betting no certificates even if they WERE issued have survived to today. We're not the first to wonder about the founders' ranks in karate. If there was any evidence to support they had been awarded formal dan rankings (besides a quick 'hey, you're a black belt now'), I believe it would have come to light before now.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #14
In one of the sources I've read, Lee Won Kuk was put on trial and exiled for being a Japanese sympathizer after going back to Japan for more training. My guess is that other Kwan founders took this as a lesson and tried their best to hide the fact that they were Japanese trained.
I would think the opposite is true. The Japanese were occupying Korea and didn't think highly of them at all. Look at the "National Pride" that Korea has shown since post WWII.
Just look at the hubbub that the hapkido world has been part of concerning the founder and his role in the house of Takkeda.
Just look at the hubbub that the hapkido world has been part of concerning the founder and his role in the house of Takkeda.
No. LWK was, as Eric Madis documents in his excellent recent article on the emergence of TKD from Shotokan, detained because he refused to affiliate the CDK with Syngman Rhee's party. Lee was apparently afraid that Rhee was planning to use the CDK, and other trained MA groups, as muscle in the political infighting then going on in Korea, and he wanted no part of it. He rejected Rhee's 'invitation', and the result was that he and his family were imprisoned. He wasn't exiled; he went to Japan after he was released because at that point, it was much freer and he didn't have to feel he was a political target.
Where did you read that stuff about him being suspected of being a Japanese sympathizer? The fact is, as Madis also points out, the whole Rhee regime was filled with former collaborators!
No, what I was saying was that certificates would have been issued to, and valued by, the recipients themselves. I know that relations between Funakoshi and Ro were always extremely cordial, whatever the general (i.e., distinctly racist) view of the Koreans on the part of the Japanese was; but Funakoshi was Okinawan, not Japanese, and the Okinawans were tarred with the same bigoted brush. Ro has always honored Funakoshi; the name of his school, Song Moo Kwan, is actually close to a literal translation into Korean of Shoto Kan (Pine Tree Hall of (Martial) Training), and I've read statements by Ro that he was specifically honoring his instructor, i.e., GF, in naming it that.
It could well be, though, that the documentary evidence didn't survive. I agree with dancingalone that if it had, we should have heard about it by this point, and maybe there never was any. It might have been much less formal in those days....
OP
rmclain
Black Belt
There are copies of Toyama Kanken's book around. You could contact the US Shudokan association. Both Yoon Byung-in and Yoon Kwe-byung (Yoon ui-byung), Jido-kwan founder, were listed as 4th Dan in Toyama's instructor directory. Yoon Kwe-byung (Yoon ui-byung) even had a dojo in Japan called, Hanmoo-Kwan or "Korean People Martial School." He also authored a book in Japan on Bong-sul (Bo-jitsu) and dedicated it to his instructors Genwa Mabuni and Toyama Kanken. Interestingly, he created his own bong hyung. But, nobody in Jido-Kwan knows this form anymore.
R. McLain
R. McLain
I am 99.9% positive that General Choi of the ITF claimed to have achieved 2 Dan in Shotokan.
I would have to dig out the encyclopedia to be sure though.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #20
I tried contacting the JKA, but I noticed that this organization was established until 1949. There might not be ANY official documentation of rank before then in the form of certificates.
