Shoes - Weapons or hindrances?

[Tez3]

It's a riddle really, when is a side kick not a side kick, answer... when it's something else.

 

[Orange Lightning]

It's a riddle really, when is a side kick not a side kick, answer... when it's something else.

Is a sidekick not a sidekick when you use your heel? Lots of people use their heel.
Whatever it is, it serves me well.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ok. Fine. For the sake of argument, I can give you that kicking with the arch is inferior to kicking with the blade for creating impact, and would be the wrong choice to achieve that goal.
It doesn't matter for me though, if it's wrong or right. If I kick something with the blade of my foot, I will hurt the bones in my foot. Maybe it's the way the bones in my foot are aligned or the bones in my foot are unusually fragile. I don't rightly know.

If I kick something, barefoot, with the blade of my foot, I have a high chance of hurting it. There is no debating that point. It is the way it is. If that gimps my sidekicks, well... I'll just have to live with that. If I have to kick "wrong", to avoid that, I will.

It's not "inferior", it's wrong. Using the correct word is, in many ways, as important as doing the kick correctly.
And it's quite possible that there isn't anything wrong with your foot. You're just kicking incorrectly.
Sidekicks with the blade of the foot, done wrong, hurt. Done properly, they don't. And, frankly, the vast majority of sidekicks are done with the HEEL, not the blade, for very good reasons.
This highlights one of the many problems with trying to learn martial arts techniques without any actual training.
Because it really does "matter for [you]" if it's wrong.
In a school, we'd make sure you were doing the kick right. On your own, you've gone from a poorly executed (and hence painful) sidekick to a completely wrong (and hence ineffective) sidekick.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

How do you feel about kicking wearing shoes? Are there certain design features that you look for in your shoe? I try to find a narrow one that doesn't do too much foot arch correcting. The arch takes the power out of a sidekick, and I feel that it lessens the springiness of my feet.

How does the arch take power out of a sidekick? or perhaps more importantly, how does one deliver a sidekick with the arch. Normally I think of a sidekick as coming up and moving straight forward . The arch can't come into play mechanically. Now a snap kick up into the crotch can be. A kick from the rear leg to the legs, waist or head where the leg is snapped, can be. But what I usually mean when I say sidekick, just can't be done that way. Or maybe there is a sidekick I don't know about.

 

[Orange Lightning]

It's not "inferior", it's wrong. Using the correct word is, in many ways, as important as doing the kick correctly.
And it's quite possible that there isn't anything wrong with your foot. You're just kicking incorrectly.
Sidekicks with the blade of the foot, done wrong, hurt. Done properly, they don't. And, frankly, the vast majority of sidekicks are done with the HEEL, not the blade, for very good reasons.
This highlights one of the many problems with trying to learn martial arts techniques without any actual training.
Because it really does "matter for [you]" if it's wrong.
In a school, we'd make sure you were doing the kick right. On your own, you've gone from a poorly executed (and hence painful) sidekick to a completely wrong (and hence ineffective) sidekick.

.......really?

Clearly, I died and you became the expert on my body. My feet hurt just walking sometimes. I've hurt my feet many times in totally unrelated things.
I do all my sidekicks with my heel, so it isn't an issue. Which you say is wrong when I say it, and right when you say it. Hypocritical.
You're talking about my ability, another thing you are mysteriously expert on, even though I didn't want my ability to have anything to do with the conversation, which you knew about. Just to debate something I don't care to debate.
And now you're revealing what I confided in you, a moderator, as a secret. Again, just to argue something I don't care to argue, and in many cases, don't dispute.
Why?

 

[Tez3]

Is a sidekick not a sidekick when you use your heel? Lots of people use their heel.
Whatever it is, it serves me well.

Well, to be honest apart from you I've never seen or even heard of anyone doing a 'side kick' with the heel. I am actually having trouble imagining it which might be me but I'm thinking probably not.

 

[oftheherd1]

Ok. Fine. For the sake of argument, I can give you that kicking with the arch is inferior to kicking with the blade for creating impact, and would be the wrong choice to achieve that goal.
It doesn't matter for me though, if it's wrong or right. If I kick something with the blade of my foot, I will hurt the bones in my foot. Maybe it's the way the bones in my foot are aligned or the bones in my foot are unusually fragile. I don't rightly know.

If I kick something, barefoot, with the blade of my foot, I have a high chance of hurting it. There is no debating that point. It is the way it is. If that gimps my sidekicks, well... I'll just have to live with that. If I have to kick "wrong", to avoid that, I will.

OK, I think maybe we are thinking of different terms to describe parts of the foot. When you say blade, are you referring to the outer side part of the foot? Does the arch describe the curved top part of the foot between the leg and the toes, or do you differentiate between top and bottom of the arch?

And while we are at it, perhaps you could define what you mean by a side kick. Especially in light of Tez3' s comment she can't conceive of a sidekick striking with the heel.

 

[Orange Lightning]

How does the arch take power out of a sidekick? or perhaps more importantly, how does one deliver a sidekick with the arch. Normally I think of a sidekick as coming up and moving straight forward . The arch can't come into play mechanically. Now a snap kick up into the crotch can be. A kick from the rear leg to the legs, waist or head where the leg is snapped, can be. But what I usually mean when I say sidekick, just can't be done that way. Or maybe there is a sidekick I don't know about.

I use it as a general term. Any kick that creates force by way of straight extension from the side of your hip I consider a sidekick, whether you kick with the heel, arch, blade, ball, or even toe, and regardless of the direction it comes from. The effectiveness of each is... well, some are more preferable than others.

In my experience, when I have a shoe that does too much arch correcting, it takes power out of it the kick with the heel or arch. It makes the surface of your foot more round, and the material is gives more than your foot. For most shoes, it just increases the surface area of the kick, so it has less force in a concentrated area. At the very worst, it puts so much soft padding between your foot and the target that it's little better than smacking them with a pillow.
You can't use the arch of your foot for a side kick? I wouldn't particularly recommend it, but it's not hard to do.

 

[Dirty Dog]

.......really?

Clearly, I died and you became the expert on my body.

Well, I do have a better than average understanding of human physiology. And I've spent an awful lot of time being taught how to kick properly in the years since my first lesson (1969).

My feet hurt just walking sometimes. I've hurt my feet many times in totally unrelated things.

Poor baby. I'm sorry to hear that. Lots of people have sore feet. Including a number of our students.
They've all managed to learn how to kick properly, without pain.

I do all my sidekicks with my heel, so it isn't an issue.

Then why did you say you were doing them with the arch, and that doing so was taking the power out of the kick?
Did you forget that you'd said that?

Which you say is wrong when I say it, and right when you say it.

Not at all. When you say you do sidekicks with the arch, I'll say that's wrong. Because it is.

Do you usually have difficulty remembering what you've posted?

Hypocritical.

Just an FYI... personal attacks are against the rules here.

You're talking about my ability,

No, I'm talking about what you've posted. You know... where you said you were doing weak sidekicks with the arch of the foot. A kick that is incorrect.

another thing you are mysteriously expert on, even though I didn't want my ability to have anything to do with the conversation, which you knew about. Just to debate something I don't care to debate.

I don't know anything about your ability. I do know that you're doing the kick wrong. That's what I've commented on.

And now you're revealing what I confided in you, a moderator, as a secret. Again, just to argue something I don't care to argue, and in many cases, don't dispute.
Why?

Here's a free clue. It's obvious to anybody with any real degree of training that you haven't had any, or if you have, it's of very poor quality. Otherwise, you wouldn't be trying to find a way to do an effective sidekick with the arch of the foot.
All they have to do is read your posts.

 

[Orange Lightning]

OK, I think maybe we are thinking of different terms to describe parts of the foot. When you say blade, are you referring to the outer side part of the foot? Does the arch describe the curved top part of the foot between the leg and the toes, or do you differentiate between top and bottom of the arch?

Blade refers space between your pinky toe and your heel. The outside of your foot. Arch refers to the space between the front of your foot (the ball) and the heel. On the bottom of your foot.

 

[Dirty Dog]

How does the arch take power out of a sidekick? or perhaps more importantly, how does one deliver a sidekick with the arch. Normally I think of a sidekick as coming up and moving straight forward . The arch can't come into play mechanically. Now a snap kick up into the crotch can be. A kick from the rear leg to the legs, waist or head where the leg is snapped, can be. But what I usually mean when I say sidekick, just can't be done that way. Or maybe there is a sidekick I don't know about.

The arch of the foot is the curve in the bottom. An incorrectly done sidekick can impact on the toes, the ball of the foot, or even the arch. Technically, the top of the arch is called the instep.

Well, to be honest apart from you I've never seen or even heard of anyone doing a 'side kick' with the heel. I am actually having trouble imagining it which might be me but I'm thinking probably not.

It's actually quite common. The striking surface is the bottom of the heel. This is easier to learn and requires less conditioning than striking with the blade of the foot, which is why it's commonly taught to beginners.

 

[oftheherd1]

The arch of the foot is the curve in the bottom. An incorrectly done sidekick can impact on the toes, the ball of the foot, or even the arch. Technically, the top of the arch is called the instep.

Thanks for that correction. I have usually referred to the top and bottom portions of the arch. My bad.

It's actually quite common. The striking surface is the bottom of the heel. This is easier to learn and requires less conditioning than striking with the blade of the foot, which is why it's commonly taught to beginners.

I guess we'll have to wait for Tez3 to clarify what she meant, possible any kick to the side of the opponent? But you know how those on the other side of the pond massacre the King's English.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Thanks for that correction. I have usually referred to the top and bottom portions of the arch. My bad.

You're not wrong. The arch is the curve in the center of the foot made up of the tarsal and metatarsal bones. Instep is just a way of saying "top of the arch" in less words.


But it's the QUEEN's English...

 

[oftheherd1]

You're not wrong. The arch is the curve in the center of the foot made up of the tarsal and metatarsal bones. Instep is just a way of saying "top of the arch" in less words.

Thanks. Tarsal, metatarsal? Oh wow I love it when you talk dirty like that.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I once took 3 semesters of Anatomy and Physiology with the idea that I would memorize all the bones and could impress pathologists I sometimes worked with. Can you imagine how surprised I was when I learned our professor was a blood guy, and only taught anatomy as it related to physiology. But in the long run, I learned so much more that way.

But it's the QUEEN's English...

Oops! I guess I've been watching too many movies from ancient times. I should have known better. (sigh)

I really should have known better, I did watch her coronation of TV, along with much of the rest of the world.

 

[Tez3]

It's actually quite common. The striking surface is the bottom of the heel. This is easier to learn and requires less conditioning than striking with the blade of the foot, which is why it's commonly taught to beginners.

Nope, never heard of it. We don't teach beginners easy ways they then have to change, we start right as we mean to go on. Side kick or Sokuto Yokogeri (soku = foot, to = knife, yoko= side, geri =kick) so the 'knife' part is the side of the foot not the heel.

No idea what you mean when you say you don't know what I mean, it's obvious.

 

[Orange Lightning]

Well, I do have a better than average understanding of human physiology. And I've spent an awful lot of time being taught how to kick properly in the years since my first lesson (1969).



Poor baby. I'm sorry to hear that. Lots of people have sore feet. Including a number of our students.
They've all managed to learn how to kick properly, without pain.

Then why did you say you were doing them with the arch, and that doing so was taking the power out of the kick?
Did you forget that you'd said that?

Not at all. When you say you do sidekicks with the arch, I'll say that's wrong. Because it is.

Do you usually have difficulty remembering what you've posted?

Just an FYI... personal attacks are against the rules here.

No, I'm talking about what you've posted. You know... where you said you were doing weak sidekicks with the arch of the foot. A kick that is incorrect.

I don't know anything about your ability. I do know that you're doing the kick wrong. That's what I've commented on.



Here's a free clue. It's obvious to anybody with any real degree of training that you haven't had any, or if you have, it's of very poor quality. Otherwise, you wouldn't be trying to find a way to do an effective sidekick with the arch of the foot.
All they have to do is read your posts.

The point of saying my feet hurt was only to say that I've hurt my feet doing unrelated things, and the results of the injuries makes me avoid using the blade of my foot.

I said that having too much arch correction reduces the effectiveness of sidekicks. Especially if you land with your arch. I've said multiple times that I aim with my heel and sometimes it lands with my arch, because my timing or aim was off.

That wasn't a personal attack. I was saying you were telling me I'm wrong, and proving it by saying the same thing I did.
This is probably just an interpretation error between one of us. I was referring to me saying that I do sidekicks with my heel, you telling me I'm wrong (for doing sidekicks with my arch) and then saying you should do side kicks with your heel or blade.
By the way, how is this not a personal attack? You only brought this up to argue with me about self training, knowing I didn't want to discuss it.

The part where you talk about my ability.
"In a school, we'd make sure you were doing the kick right. On your own, you've gone from a poorly executed (and hence painful) sidekick to a completely wrong (and hence ineffective) sidekick."

You seem to think I do sidekicks with my arch. I don't. I use my heel. If I mess it up, it lands on my arch. It isn't that big of a deal. It's just less effective than it would have been.


"Here's a free clue. It's obvious to anybody with any real degree of training that you haven't had any, or if you have, it's of very poor quality. Otherwise, you wouldn't be trying to find a way to do an effective sidekick with the arch of the foot.
All they have to do is read your posts"

How do you define a personal attack? That sounds like one. If you define it as name calling, then I think "poor baby" is name calling.
I'm not "trying to find an effective way to do a side kick with my arch of my foot".
It doesn't it matter to me whether or not it's apparent that I'm a self trainer. I just don't want discuss it, because that information makes threads devolve into arguments about inferiority. Which is exactly what you have deliberately done with that information. It's a pointless debate. We are not going to change each others opinion's on the topic.

 

[Tez3]

I really should have known better, I did watch her coronation of TV, along with much of the rest of the world.

I didn't, I was a few months off being born.

 

[elder999]

Nope, never heard of it. We don't teach beginners easy ways they then have to change, we start right as we mean to go on. Side kick or Sokuto Yokogeri (soku = foot, to = knife, yoko= side, geri =kick) so the 'knife' part is the side of the foot not the heel.

No idea what you mean when you say you don't know what I mean, it's obvious.

There are two parts of the foot that can make contact with yoko geri, the blade AND the heel.]

From a strictly engineering standpoint, the heel is the best point of contact for bare feet, for proper hip rotation, for alignment of contact with movement of thrust, and for the foot's mechanical stability.

If you're wearing sturdy shoes, though, from a self-defense standpoint (and why else would I be kicking someone with Redwings on?

) the edge of the foot is an excellent point to make contact with the knee or shin, scrape down the shin and stomp on the instep as an entry.

 

[Tez3]

There are two parts of the foot that can make contact with yoko geri, the blade AND the heel.]

From a strictly engineering standpoint, the heel is the best point of contact for bare feet, for proper hip rotation, for alignment of contact with movement of thrust, and for the foot's mechanical stability.

If you're wearing sturdy shoes, though, from a self-defense standpoint (and why else would I be kicking someone with Redwings on?

) the edge of the foot is an excellent point to make contact with the knee or shin, scrape down the shin and stomp on the instep as an entry.

Mmm, the way we do it, and I have just endured strange looks from the cat from trying it, means that if you strike with heel you will hurt your knee. We straighten the leg, and bring the big toe up when angling the foot to hit with the 'blade' of the foot. It may be the way we do it but it's very hard to use the heel, however on a front kick I do use the heel to strike.

Redwings here is a horse sanctuary lol!

 

[elder999]

Mmm, the way we do it, and I have just endured strange looks from the cat from trying it, means that if you strike with heel you will hurt your knee. We straighten the leg, and bring the big toe up when angling the foot to hit with the 'blade' of the foot. It may be the way we do it but it's very hard to use the heel, however on a front kick I do use the heel to strike.

Redwings here is a horse sanctuary lol!

Just raise draw all the toes up toward you, and put the heel forward, no ankle rotation (angling) and the heel is at the end of the leg. If you've been doing side kicks with the blade of the foot, this way should be easy to try.

This isn't the best, but here:

Yeah,, over here, Redwings are a hockey team, and.....something else as well...., if you're a biker,

but I'm talking about these:

in size 15....that's 14 in the U.K., or 49 1/2 in the rest of the EU.

Imagine a steel toed pair of those heading for your mushy parts....