Shodan ego inflation

[karateka]

I agree strongly on this matter.

It's one thing if you have a discussion after the class is over, and in private, and talk about such things. If anything, a wise teacher who has made a mistake, will be more than willing to listen to such things, in a polite conversation.

However, openly questioning someone in front of the other students certainly shows disrespect. Even if the intentions were good, there's a right time and place for them, and the classroom floor is certainly not that.

i also agree, but more importantly after the situation has been resolved, the students if needed must be corrected, for if you teach a student something incorrect, and they perform that mistake or teach it onto someone else, it is your mistake, not thiers.

 

[Shodan]

Oh good......I was afraid this topic was about me!! (Topic Title/User Name)

 

[Blindside]

It traditional karate it is disrespectful to correct those that have a higher rank than you. Regardless of whether or not they are correct is not important. You have not attained the rank they have, therefore you theoretically should not know as much as them. If they are doing things wrong the person that promotes them will not allow them to go farther without fixing the problem. If you notice it and they don't that is there problem, and you will eventually surpass them. To show another martial artist disrespect is dishonorable, and wrong. Bring it up to a higher ranking member, but do not approach it yourself. Even if you say they are doing it wrong, not many will listen to someone of lower rank. Is this ideal? no. Is this perfect? no. Just remember to respect those that have come before you, those that will come after you, and those that helped you to get where you are today.

Correcting someone is not "disrespect" it is a correction. If an instructor will not listen to someone of lower rank, then THEY have the ego problem, and it probably needs to be stepped on.

While I would probably address it after the class/session/seminar rest assured I would address it. The proper instruction of my students is my priority, not to salve the bruised ego of someone who has been doing this longer than me.

I've certainly been corrected before by students, and I don't think I've ever taken it as disrespect. The proper transmission of the Art is important, not the egos of those of us who teach it.

Lamont

 

[WyldFya]

Correcting someone is not disrespect, however when someone of lower rank corrects a higher ranking person it is disrespect. In a perfect world, the higher ranking person should know more, however, that isn't always the case. I personally feel that making a correction to a senior member is disrespectful, but I personally do not take offense to it. I would never correct my teacher in front of a class. I might ask him about it after class, but not during. I'm not saying that he should not address the problem, but that there is a time and a place that will get it done, and still show respect. If you question a teachers technique in class, immediately the teacher will get defensive, or the students will start to look at him with less admiration in my experience.

Example: You are in the military, and your CO tells you to drop. Do you question him? No. Why?

Theoretically the person that has been in a discipline longer has fine tuned their skills more. They may see, or know, something that you did not.

 

[searcher]

Sad to say but this is more and more common every day. We had some problems with a dojo that my wife and I trained in for a few years. I trained her in addition to what she was doing in the class and she became the target of a few over-inflated shodans. The way she fixed it was to knock out two of them. It showed what she was capable of and they eased back a bit, but in the end we left.

 

[eyebeams]

How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility and atrocious in form?? Im interested in hearing upper and lower rank perspectives and opinions. And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??
(Im curious because Im not the most perceptive person around)

If he can kick my *** with his bad form, then the form aint so bad.

 

[evenflow1121]

With the sprouting of Mc Dojo's this is more and more of a common problem. Back in the good ol days you would get your *** kicked royally upon receiving your shodan by all the senior students, sort of to remind you of your place in society. Classes were also taught by the instructor while assisted by one assistant, usually the highest ranked belt attending the class; while the highest ranked would participate in class like any other student, he or she could point out flaws in other students and help discipline if need be, but that was it, everyone else was there to take the class and that was the end of that.

 

[Blindside]

Correcting someone is not disrespect, however when someone of lower rank corrects a higher ranking person it is disrespect. In a perfect world, the higher ranking person should know more, however, that isn't always the case. I personally feel that making a correction to a senior member is disrespectful, but I personally do not take offense to it. I would never correct my teacher in front of a class. I might ask him about it after class, but not during. I'm not saying that he should not address the problem, but that there is a time and a place that will get it done, and still show respect. If you question a teachers technique in class, immediately the teacher will get defensive, or the students will start to look at him with less admiration in my experience.

Example: You are in the military, and your CO tells you to drop. Do you question him? No. Why?

Theoretically the person that has been in a discipline longer has fine tuned their skills more. They may see, or know, something that you did not.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. However, I do not consider a military chain of command to be the equivalent to the organizational structure of a civilian organization.

Lamont

 

[Blindside]

Back in the good ol days you would get your *** kicked royally upon receiving your shodan by all the senior students, sort of to remind you of your place in society.

Back in the good old days? Was the good old days 6 years ago? 'Cause this is sounding awful familiar.

Lamont

 

[twendkata71]

I got that before and after my shodan promotion. The night the week before in class. The senior black belts ran me through the mill. Then, the week after. It was rough. It did keep my ego in check.

Back in the good old days? Was the good old days 6 years ago? 'Cause this is sounding awful familiar.

Lamont

 

[WyldFya]

With the sprouting of Mc Dojo's this is more and more of a common problem. Back in the good ol days you would get your *** kicked royally upon receiving your shodan by all the senior students, sort of to remind you of your place in society. Classes were also taught by the instructor while assisted by one assistant, usually the highest ranked belt attending the class; while the highest ranked would participate in class like any other student, he or she could point out flaws in other students and help discipline if need be, but that was it, everyone else was there to take the class and that was the end of that.

Back in the good old days? That style of teaching is still out there. My teachers school, my shihan, and seiko shihan all teach like that as well as myself. It may be uncommon, but there are still those out there that teach in this way. I myself am very much so into preserving the old ways of teaching.

 

[WyldFya]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. However, I do not consider a military chain of command to be the equivalent to the organizational structure of a civilian organization.

Lamont

I agree and disagree. I agree that not all are taught in a militaristic style, but it is a very traditional way to teach. My teacher actually trained the Navy seals in hand to hand combat. So I got a very strict style of teaching.

 

[WyldFya]

I got that before and after my shodan promotion. The night the week before in class. The senior black belts ran me through the mill. Then, the week after. It was rough. It did keep my ego in check.

Haha, I got the same thing, however we didn't have any blackbelts at the time other than my teacher and his son, so I got it from my teacher and his son who was a nidan at the time.

 

[Carol]

If Sensei promotes someone with "bad form", that is Sensei's responsibility, not a karate-ka's responsibility. A karate-ka must realize that being distracted by mediocrity (or worse...) does nothing to improve their own performance. This is true inside the dojo or outside.

Ego problems are another story. Everybody can have an ego...student, instructor, black belt, coloured belt. To me, ego problems are more of an indication of a class with an profound lack of focus. It does't matter whether it's the high schoolers yapping away, karate-kas that would rather complain than train, or dans prancing about in self-importance...an unfocused class is an unfocused class. That is unacceptable.

Whether one is a karate sensei, a hockey coach, a Biology professor, or a math tutor - an instructor of ANY kind must first and formost keep class on target and students focused. No exceptions. To do otherwise would be dishonourable the role the instructor has earned and disrespecful to the students that have pledged their faith, respect, efforts, commitment, money, and time.

If a Sensei finds a karate-ka to be disrespectful for inisting upon a focused class, that is a Sensei that is not worthy of respect to begin with.

Hope I haven't said anything disrespecftul or insulting to the good folks here. Thanks for letting me butt in :asian:

 

[WyldFya]

Very well said Carol Kaur. I agree completely. Thanks for putting into words what I couldn't.

 

[Kacey]

Receiving a black belt in any art is an achievement, and one should be proud of it... having said that, when I received my I Dan in TKD, I was told that cho-dan meant "baby black belt" (said with a smile... but still... at no time was I ever under the impression that black belt was an end in itself). As others have said, at black belt, you are finally ready to learn something beyond the basics. Here's another comparison - at white belt, TKD (and, in general, any MA) is 95% physical, and 5% mental; that is, the skills one is learning are primarily physical, through demonstration and practice, with relatively little explanation given as to why something is done a particular way. As one improves in skills, and is promoted up the ranks, this shifts, until at black belt the emphasis is primarily mental, rather than physical. There are several reasons for this:

- one, it is a sad fact of life that, past a certain age, no matter what you do, your body is going to stop getting better, and will begin to get worse, so you must get smarter, because you aren't going to get faster!

- two, as has been mentioned, the senior student present in a class is expected to help the instructor - that means the student must begin to understand the techniques being taught well enough to critique and teach them, which requires a higher level of understanding than is required to perform them.

- three, without understanding of techniques, they are less useful. I could take any lower belt in my class and teach him/her one of the patterns I learned for IV Dan - but that won't make the student a VI Dan, it will make the person a color belt who knows a senior pattern. Instruction in MAs follows a sequence that builds on itself, because that helps students to understand the use of each technique, without which techniques cannot be applied in a meaningful fashion. Different organizations may teach the same techniques in a different sequence, but there is a reason for the sequence chosen, and until one reaches BB and has learned a reasonable variety of techniques, and can look back at what has been learned and how it inter-relates, this sequence is hard to explain, and often isn't explained. At BB ranks, the rationale behind the sequence can be taught, because the student now has enough experience to understand how the sequence builds on itself.

Black belt is a beginning - not an ending - and students who achieve the rank of BB need to be aware that I Dan is a signpost on a longer journey, not a destination in itself. The ones who think they have made it by reaching BB have missed something along their journey - and are more likely to drop out in the year or so after testing, especially if they are not allowed to rest on their laurels by their seniors, as some expect. Having set their sights on the destination of BB, they need to find a new goal - a higher rank, instructor status, etc.

 

[twendkata71]

I remember the first time I competed as a shodan in the mens black belt middleweight division. It was a real eye opener. If I had any ego or misconceptions about the fact that Shodan is just a new beginning to my training. It was quickly put to rest at the end of my first round of official black belt competition.

 

[twendkata71]

I remember the first time I competed as a shodan in the mens black belt middleweight division. It was a real eye opener. If I had any ego or misconceptions about the fact that Shodan is just a new beginning to my training. It was quickly put to rest at the end of my first round of official black belt competition.

 

[chinto]

How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility and atrocious in form?? Im interested in hearing upper and lower rank perspectives and opinions. And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??
(Im curious because Im not the most perceptive person around)

No, but our system has a rank called "shodan ho" and it is a minumum of 1 year probationary shodan rank. if they train and do not get an inflatted ego and other problems they become a full shodan. If they do not, then they stay shodan ho, and if its a situation like you discribe, they are demoted to ich kyu or even back to san kyu.

 

[Chizikunbo]

How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility and atrocious in form?? Im interested in hearing upper and lower rank perspectives and opinions. And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??
(Im curious because Im not the most perceptive person around)

This is natural among almost all new dan holders. The best you can do is to remind the student that BB is only the beggining of REAL study, it is like going into college, you have the basic skills of the art, but are nowhere near true and accurate understanding...Alot of schools used to practice BB hazing and such, which is not good for students development; rather show the student of what they have left to learn, because true mastery lies not in what you can show off, but what you know you cannot...that is meant to be cryptic, in the tone my teacher once told me, interpret it as you may ;-)
--josh