Shielding Hammer and fwd movement

[Handsword]

The techniques "Shielding Hammer" and "Sword of Destruction" both have the same base move (outward extended block) dealing with the same attack (left roundhouse punch). And most kenpo systems teach these within the first couple of best (Yellow and Orange).

My question is - would any variation need to be made to Shielding Hammer if the first move involved a forward step into the right neutral bow instead of a backwards step?

The reason I ask this is because I can see benefits in teaching S of D as a backwards step - making use of a beginner's natural reaction to move away from an attack, and then using the kick to regain range. And Shielding Hammer could be taught as a forward step against the same attack (giving the student another option with the first step).

 

[brianhunter]

Originally posted by Handsword

The techniques "Shielding Hammer" and "Sword of Destruction" both have the same base move (outward extended block) dealing with the same attack (left roundhouse punch). And most kenpo systems teach these within the first couple of best (Yellow and Orange).

My question is - would any variation need to be made to Shielding Hammer if the first move involved a forward step into the right neutral bow instead of a backwards step?

The reason I ask this is because I can see benefits in teaching S of D as a backwards step - making use of a beginner's natural reaction to move away from an attack, and then using the kick to regain range. And Shielding Hammer could be taught as a forward step against the same attack (giving the student another option with the first step).

My only problem with this particular technique and stepping into the attack is you might end up blocking the inside of the arm "above the elbow" so you could catch a back knuckle, if you are immediately moving forward with someone "hooking" a punch at you. By stepping forward with sheilding hammer you would be entering zones that have not yet cancelled, nothing is checking the depth and you are actually cancelling your own. Im not an expert by any means so take it for what it is worth.

 

[Handsword]

My idea of stepping forward would be to get inside the attack before it builds up in power (much like stepping forward for overhead baton attacks).

The extra forward momentum (from a forward step as opposed to a backwards step) could be used to add to the impact of the outward extended block.

Also, minimal adjustment needs to be made for Shielding Hammer's raking fist to act as a block for any immediate follow-up strike by the attacker's left hand.

At least, that's the lines I'm thinking along for a forward step. Can other people please add their thoughts?

 

[jaybacca72]

when you step forward insert a left palm heel strike to the face to cancel his depth.i was taught you step forward once you know the technique well.besides you are suppose to play with the variations of the techniques.Ed Parker once told me if you are doing the move exactly the same five years from now you are not doing my art justice.
later
jay
ps hope that helped.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Handsword
The way we do these two techniques is that Sword of Destruction is for a hooking punch sort of like Five Swords in that you see it coming... Mr. Duffy likes to do Sheilding Mace more as a defense against a hook during sparring where you are already in pretty tight and your reflexive reaction to the hook is to bring your guard up quick. Then from here you step in and finish the technique. But it doesn't matter if this is for a "sparring/boxing" scenario where you are in tight or if you just get caugt off guard and you just barely have time to get the block up and tuck your chin. That is the way we do this one. Sheilding Hammer is sort of "What if you were too slow to do Sword of Destruction." The reasons could be many as I hope I have pointed out.
My idea of stepping forward would be to get inside the attack before it builds up in power (much like stepping forward for overhead baton attacks).

The extra forward momentum (from a forward step as opposed to a backwards step) could be used to add to the impact of the outward extended block.

Also, minimal adjustment needs to be made for Shielding Hammer's raking fist to act as a block for any immediate follow-up strike by the attacker's left hand.

At least, that's the lines I'm thinking along for a forward step. Can other people please add their thoughts?

I have recently experimented with using Sword and Hammer for this type of thing. I guess in your example you are wanting to jam the incoming punch by striking the bicep. This should work to defeat a backnuckle to the head as your right arm should be longer than his forearm. Also this would really be a good time to have your left check in place as you may need it to stike and help stop his forward momentum.

My thoughts on this now would be that you could do this if you step in with your right, heel-palm the incoming left punch at the bicep, left heel-palm his sternum or otherwise strike his center line or even his right shoulder to stop him coming forward and then I think you could rotate back to a Right Neutral bow and finish the technique like it is written.

Were you looking for some feedback like that? I like what jaybacca72 said, I think this is along that line. I think the techniques are designed primarily to get you to "do something," they are not primarily designed to get you to "not do something different" if that makes sense.

This seems to be a big debate in Kenpo. But my feeling is that as long as you know the base technique, you can do whatever else you want as long as it doesn't violate principles and you are still teaching the system. Mr. Duffy will never fail to show us the book version of a technique whenever he shows us an alternate. This is one of the things I like about him. He knows what Mr. Parker put down and if he has another idea, he shows you both. I agree with Mr. Duffy that the base techniques serve a purpose and in order to accomplish this purpose we should preserve them. I think he'd agree with me on that. But of course depending on your size, their size and other factors, it may seem sometimes like you can or should change something to make it work. This is not wrong, I think Mr. Parker called it "tailoring."

Anyway, anything you do should be fine if you stick to the proper application of the concepts and principles and if you deviate from them you should be able to explain why.

Sorry, I think I got off on a tangent but I hope it was relevant to what you wanted.
:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

So try stepping back, inward-outward extended block, and if the opponent is close enough, change the orbit of the left hand to a downward outward heel palm (fingers pointing to your right), striking the left lower abdominal region. This could be a strike to the spleen, floating ribs, or with a little more downward vector, actually be a strike to the top of hip, acting as a suppressing check and solidly planting his left foot to the ground. This has several intentional side effects: 1) He cannot pick up his left leg to kick; 2) You are disrupting heigth and depth, which checks width; 3) you create borrowed force for his impaling himself on your next strike; 4) You have hurt him with First Stike intent, etc.

Lots of little inserts if you are given the time and are so inclined - eye rakes, raking claw, strike to the hinge of the mandible.

Now let's insert the kick from Sword of Destruction - hmmmm.... that works also. How about combination attacks? For example on the Yellow Belt Chart, Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction are complimentary, in that you can retreat blocking right and left punches, then insert the appropriate aggressive kick/strike when you have an openning (something I teach beginners.) Then at Orange we look at Five Swords and Shielding Hammer as "complimentary" techniques, as we can do the same thing, defending against wild swings and work inside the hot zone with the strikes.

It's all fun stuff. But it is important to teach the Ideal Phase and make sure it is ingrained before moving to grafting, or pinpointing nerves, etc.

Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[cdhall]

I just wanted to say that this thread and my previous posts are examples of when I used Mr. Billing's site to look up something while I was trying to type a discussion. I looked up Shielding Hammer and Five Swords both, and it is probably in situations like this that I most often go to his site to be sure I don't mis-speak something.
:asian:

 

[headkick]

I've been taught these as a roundhouse punch (SoD) and a hook punch (SH). There is a difference. Now, often that difference is very subtle. Stepping in to a roundhouse with an extended outward block could work. Stepping in to a hook punch may be less effective. That only makes sense if you think of the hook as being a shorter punch and the roundhouse being a longer punch.

Just a thought...

 

[Handsword]

Okay, thanks for the replies and I've got a couple of responses to add ...

Originally posted by jaybacca72

... you are suppose to play with the variations of the techniques. Ed Parker once told me if you are doing the move exactly the same five years from now you are not doing my art justice.

Originally posted by cdhall

I think the techniques are designed primarily to get you to "do something," they are not primarily designed to get you to "not do something different" if that makes sense.

I very much enjoyed reading this as I have had times where I felt I was getting too experimental with my technique interpretation - but not so anymore!


Mr Billings - I like the idea of training "complimentary" techniques while making things a bit more freestyle. I often include "scenario" type training and can now see how this can be used to work two or more techniques at once.

- Slade

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by headkick

I've been taught these as a roundhouse punch (SoD) and a hook punch (SH). There is a difference...
Just a thought...

I just taught Roundhouse vs Hook today and went into Sword of Destruction and you are correct. I came back to check this. I very quickly made the same points this morning during my illustration.
:karate:

 

[Michael Billings]

Who says you can's use the same "motion"; e.g. - They start a roundhouse and close the range .. or you do, try starting your outward extended, but instantaneously change the weapon to a right upward-outward diagonal elbow. This should jam the hook. The rest of the technique can follow ... or not! Obviously something that I "learned on the fly" sparring, but it works well and you keep your hand in front of your face where it does the most good. From the outward elbow postion (POA), I frequently do a right thrustin heel palm strike to the sternum or left hinge of the mandible, fingers pointed to the left. The elbow gets up and blocking/striking a lot faster than the outward extended once you pattern it in.

Just an idea to play with for those interested.

Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[Doc]

Stepping forward on Shielding Hammer can, and will control his depth when executed properly above the elbow. (Even though it violates one of the simplistic Kenpo Rules)

 

[Kenpodoc]

Personally my favorite variant of Shielding Hammer is to step my Left foot up the circle to 7:30. I'm still creating distance, I'm also moving my target to the side and away from the weapon which makes the technique work better for both Roundhouse and straight punch. My opponent is now squared off to me in a Horse stance and I have his/her whole midline with me in a fighting stance.

This also works well if you move up the circle and slip Left boxer style whith no block and hand held high.

It's a simple fun technique with lots of room to modify and play.

I've also tried the stepping up varient and find that a good strong block to the upper arm acts like a striking shoulder check and gets your opponent back on their heels negating both arms as weapons. If the block is done with enough power and the opponent is slightly rocked back the weapon has trouble continuing to move with power around your block.

Just my experience,

Jeff

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

KenpoDoc

Yeah KD, but now you're wide open (your centerline is exposed), your attacker is moving towards you i.e. forward momentum, and you just eliminated your supporting structure without creating any opposing forward momentum of your own.
Can you say takedown?

Something we were working on last week were different variations in the blocks (parries, hammers, wedges, etc.). We found that the best way to deal with someone is to try and smother them. That means you throw a couple of attacks and continue your forward progress until you make contact. This was possible no matter how hard the defender blocked because we didn't have to fully commit to any one attack, we were working a game plan.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
KenpoDoc

Yeah KD, but now you're wide open (your centerline is exposed), your attacker is moving towards you i.e. forward momentum, and you just eliminated your supporting structure without creating any opposing forward momentum of your own.
Can you say takedown?

Something we were working on last week were different variations in the blocks (parries, hammers, wedges, etc.). We found that the best way to deal with someone is to try and smother them. That means you throw a couple of attacks and continue your forward progress until you make contact. This was possible no matter how hard the defender blocked because we didn't have to fully commit to any one attack, we were working a game plan.

I mentiond 3 variations. Does this refer to all three or jus one of them. The first variation I mentioned is my favorite because it moves you off line, you have access to their center line and they don't have access to yours. and you do have good supporting structure. I won't say it can't be countered because every move can be countered at some point (Thus Zach Whitsons Counterpoint drills.) The Knuckle rake should create some opposition to their forward momentum.

Certainly the hard forward attack you mention is a good plan but this is another advantage of rotating up the circle and the returning with your own forward momentum.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I just re-read your post and I thought you meant that you would be facing your opponent in a horse stance (I.E both of you in a horse stance). Sorry, KD my bad. Dadd Gumm forums and their confusing words. Does anyone want to set what we might need for a video forum? It shouldn't be to hard. :shrug:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
Personally my favorite variant of Shielding Hammer is to step my Left foot up the circle to 7:30. I'm still creating distance, I'm also moving my target to the side and away from the weapon which makes the technique work better for both Roundhouse and straight punch. My opponent is now squared off to me in a Horse stance and I have his/her whole midline with me in a fighting stance.

This also works well if you move up the circle and slip Left boxer style whith no block and hand held high.

It's a simple fun technique with lots of room to modify and play.

I've also tried the stepping up varient and find that a good strong block to the upper arm acts like a striking shoulder check and gets your opponent back on their heels negating both arms as weapons. If the block is done with enough power and the opponent is slightly rocked back the weapon has trouble continuing to move with power around your block.

Just my experience,

Jeff

You might consider by doing this you have moved toward his secondary weapon. Pholosophically and by design of our blocking methodology, we step into the punch and "shade" to that side.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
KenpoDoc

Yeah KD, but now you're wide open (your centerline is exposed), your attacker is moving towards you i.e. forward momentum, and you just eliminated your supporting structure without creating any opposing forward momentum of your own.
Can you say takedown?

Something we were working on last week were different variations in the blocks (parries, hammers, wedges, etc.). We found that the best way to deal with someone is to try and smother them. That means you throw a couple of attacks and continue your forward progress until you make contact. This was possible no matter how hard the defender blocked because we didn't have to fully commit to any one attack, we were working a game plan.

Funny you should mention that. My latest article fr the magazine addresses that issue. Whatever methodology you use, it should be significantly structurally sound to account for the constant forward pressure, control it, and not be susceptable to the takedown either torso to torso, or by manipulating your extended limb.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

What magazine is it (Title, month)? I may have to pick it up.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
What magazine is it (Title, month)? I may have to pick it up.

The magazine is "Martial Arts Magazine" from CFW Publications (Inside Kung Fu). I am a regular contributor and write about 4 articles a year.

That particular article is in progress and although written, we don't shoot the pictures until the end of the month. I will post a publication date as soon as I am aware.