Sharing with other Arts

[arnisandyz]

I think anybody who has a good grasp on thier art should be able to intermingle with martial artists outside of thier style without fear of being "poisoned", or changed. its like religion. I was raised as a Catholic. I have dated the opposite sex that was Baptist, Lutheran, Jewish, etc and have even attended some masses at their Church, but I'm still Catholic. I haven't been converted. I did listen to what the other denominations had to say and they are not so different.

A big part of sharing is WHO you share with. You have to feel comfortable, a brotherhood that shares a like goal. otherwise it becomes a competition like Michigan TKD said. I have come across people that do not want to be associated with people outside their school. We had a big "Martial Arts Day Celebration" where each school did a demo. One school did a demo involving Escrima sticks. After the demo I went up to the instructor and commented positively on his demo. (He had seen our schools demo earlier that morning so he new I was an Arnis practioner). All I recieved was a yeah, thanks as he walked off. It was obvious he did not want to even speak with me for whatever reason. Perhaps he thought that I was going to challenge him or try and show him up, but in reality I was opening my door to him in friendship as we shared a common bond. My goal was not to change him or better him, but to share and learn.

In case you are wondering why I am here, in a TKD forum giving my input. I also have a second degree in TKD. So I come from two different schools of thought on sharing. TKD which is somewhat closed and Arnis which is very open.

 

[TigerWoman]

Hey, there is always hope! I learned today in class, that as 2nd, I will be learning more grappling techniques! Problem is though, is that my master has to learn them first! But a glimmer of hope, as I "suggested" wanting to learn more about six months ago and actually got shot down.

Also, chokes would be good too, Master Simms, as I couldn't choke out a willing 6'4" guy if my life depended on it (tried with his help too). And I have upperbody strength.

Maybe MichTKD or HHJH knows how much does traditional TKD, get into all this normally across the board? Or is this unusual?

I noticed on that clip from Dragonfooter that he was fighting a Judo stylist-uniform- as well. So he must have cross trained some. It took some time to load, but it was well worth it. Really awesome. Unstoppable. TW

 

[FearlessFreep]

I know my sabomnim says his own background is 70% TKD and 30% Hapkido and that when we reach BB in TKD he will cross train us directly in Hapkido.

I also know that in forms we do Taegeuk and in sparring we use olympic rules, but in self-defense we use things that I think are somewhat traditional TKD, somewhat borrowed from Hapkido and maybe some flavors of Judo as well. I don't know enough to say but my instructor did once say that in self-defense, you use what works, period

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear TW:

"...Also, chokes would be good too, Master Simms, as I couldn't choke out a willing 6'4" guy if my life depended on it (tried with his help too). And I have upperbody strength........."

If you are talking about strangling a 6-footer for air, you are probably right. However, if you are talking about cutting the bood supply to the brain, I think you might be surprised.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Dear Tigerwoman:

Great post. You and I probably come out of the same place. Hapkido is my art and I accept it warts and all. I probably present a pretty silly picture cutting air with my sword, or batting away at a target with a staff. And I will be the first person to admit that Hapkido has only the most basic of ground-fighting material. Yet, it is my art of choice and I have no intentions of changing. NOW, I WILL say this. Our Brown Belt material (for instance) has a range of chokes.

As I've indicated in my earlier posts, I wouldn't expect you or Tiger Woman to drop your material, and certainly not because others thought it antiquated or unacceptable. And, as I've stated, traditional arts have a place on the self defense spectrum (if not on the MMA mat) and might serve well in providing a structure and frame of ethics to the student. I don't deny this.

If you seek to keep the technical aspects of your art essentially unchanged and locked in stone, that too has merit to a point. I'll call that "archiving." It has historical benefits.

But we have seen the progressive arts themselves enter into the debate of the archival methods versus the modern. Witness the debates between the JKD people over this issue.

Archivists intend to keep their art essentially unchanged, the reasons for this vary. I perceive at least these two:

1. They wish to keep it the way it has been passed down through generations. This might have a noble purpose in seeking to perserve tradition, but it is an impossible goal. The archivist can not know that the art he is inheriting is identical to the one practiced four generations earlier, and likely it is not the same art in form or function due to either evolution (modification by practitioners), degradation (errors of transmission, execution, or interpretation), or cross-pollination (synthesis from other systems by those who don't hold fast to the archival philosophy).

This motive gives authority and mystique to a system by making it seem old, or even ancient. In truth it is no more ancient than the headmaster of the system, and is likely re-inventing itself constantly, for the reasons listed above.

2. Practitioners derive a certain affirmation from following or pepetuating"The One True Way." This can be sincere and reasonably harmless to dowright cultic. I have seen both.

It ought be noted that both students and teachers play into this mindset, no matter how dysfunctional it might be. The former attempts to earn passage into the "inner circle" of the instructors, and the latter revel in their status over the junior belts. This heirarchy is not always thus abused, but enough so as to merit mention.

"The One True Way" followers often elevate a long dead master to nearly demi-god status; are apt to do so with a living master in their chain of command; aspire to that status for themselves as witnessed by their disdain and/or abuse of juniors; and don't hesitate to denigrate other arts as being beneath them. This latter trait of trash-talking, as I've said, is also found among Progressives and MMA'ers to varying degrees.

The point I'm making is this, Bruce: Keep practicing your techniques, antiquated or not. Keep fast to your ethical principles. I don't begrudge you any of that, nor do I disdain it as some Progressives might.

But when a person states--as MichiganTKD did--that they don't want to share with other arts, when justifying this they need take a care they don't look with disdain at other systems or those who freely cross train. Their motives become instantly suspect and rightly so.

A separate issue here is the question of traditional arts and their efficacy in an MMA environ. That's to be debated in another thread, and I offer it up for meat, though it is an oft served dish. I invite MichiganTKD to further his claims there, given that he isn't inclined to back them up in any practical fashion. He doesn't want to, of course. It's beneath him, he's said. It wouldn't prove anything, he claims.

And so it goes.


Regards,


Steve

 

[MichiganTKD]

Tigerwoman,

I don't know of many Tae Kwon Do black belts in our organization who practice choking someone out, unless it is part of what they need to know for their job. We have at least one prison guard in our ranks, and I would not be surprised if he did know a couple of choking techniques. To my knowledge, guards and law enforcement officers cannot strike suspects or prisoners.
For the rest of us, learning chokes is something that we would do strictly on our own if we were inclined, similar to learning a weapon. The organization does not teach it, you do it on your own. And don't bring it to class! Myself, I am not inclined to practice them. I dislike getting that close to someone who may have a knife or gun on their person. Learning to escape them is another matter.

Steve,

I never claimed traditional martial arts were BETTER than MMA, but I prefer them. Winning UFC, NHB, or K-1 matches is not the ultimate test of a martial art. If it were, aikido, tai chi, and who knows how many more would not exist. Their practitioners do not care about UFC matches. I certainly don't. I do know that TKD was used originally in Korea by the police and military against armed gangs and rioters. So it must have some use. As far as I know, a knife is a knife, a gun is a gun, and someone trying to kill you doesn't care where they are.
You challenge for me to back up my words with action is no different than a schoolyard protagonist who tries to bait people into fighting him. Certainly not the mark of a person who claims 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do.

 

[Adept]

If you are talking about strangling a 6-footer for air, you are probably right. However, if you are talking about cutting the bood supply to the brain, I think you might be surprised.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Indeed. An air choke on someone like that means you have one or more hands tied up, while he has up to a minutes air in his lungs and both hands to wreak havoc on you. A blood choke can take them out in seconds, by cutting off the air to the brain directly.

It helps to think about how a choke works. Byt stopping the air getting to the lungs, you cut off the air to the brain, and so it shuts down. But only after it has exhasted all the air currently in the bloodstream and currently in the lungs. If you cut off the blood to the brain directly, then it doesnt matter what their lung capacity is, they only have a few seconds to get you off.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Let's contrast some quotes here,,,

MichiganTKD in bold:

Post #146: I never claimed traditional martial arts were BETTER than MMA....

Now...let us look at the following condradictions to the quote above.

Post #118: I mean superficial because all these guys do is train to fight other fighters in a controlled ring environment. To that end, instead of being students of a martial art, they pick and choose selected techniques from various styles to help them become better fighters. They do not care about etiquette, history, background, manners, or how/why a technique developed. All they care about is learning a few moves from different styles to become better fighters.

Post #122: Being a good UFC fighter means nothing.

Post #122: Honestly, I've watched Pride and K-1 matches just to see how good these guys really were. You know what? It almost put me to sleep. Two guys with no footwork or movement, focusing on punching, and kicking the legs once in a while. That's supposed to be exciting?

Post #122: They certainly are not martial arts or kicking experts. It's just PKA for the modern era.

So...you don't think traditional arts are BETTER than MMA. You minimize and degrade MMA because you think they're on equal footing with traditional arts?

My God. I think I've just found the first person to hybridize relativism with absolutism.

You challenge for me to back up my words with action is no different than a schoolyard protagonist who tries to bait people into fighting him. Certainly not the mark of a person who claims 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do.

I wasn't challenging you to a fight, sunshine. I was challenging you to a debate...while observing your clearly stated and repeated reluctance to try out your skills against an MMA fighter.

No, my challenge wasn't like a schoolyard protagonist. Nor was it like a schoolyard antagonist, which is what you meant to say (the protagonist, MTKD, is the good guy). My challenge was no different than any so laid down by any in our culture who demand action over words. Back it up, or can it.

I offer an indictment, and perhaps a summation of all I've written on this topic here and elsewhere:

You, MichiganTKD, don't share with other arts out of a deep rooted insecurity that your art--or you-- will be found lacking.

You minimize these other arts and martial artists as a reflection of that insecurity.

That insecurity has manifested itself in the past with your insulting dismissal of the opinions of the junior TKD ranks here on MartialTalk.

You veil this insecurity behind a facade of veneration of the martial traditions of respect, humility, and manners. I have yet to see any display of these virtues in your posts here, and this has been reflected in your dismal lack of positive reputation points. You have over eight hundred posts and only recently made it "in the green."


As for my claim to a 5th dan, feel free to dispute it. How can I expect any less of you?


Regards,


Steve

 

[Rich Parsons]

<cut>
As for my claim to a 5th dan, feel free to dispute it. How can I expect any less of you?

Regards,

Steve

Steve,

You mean Mr MichiganTKD, had the nerve to throw his personal morals, beliefs, values and insights on someone else? Wow! I cannot believe that. No way. So, he is willing to judge you, and cannot stand it when others question him about his attitude or judge him. Hmmmm more contradiction.

I just cannot believe it.

I am just stunned.
:idunno:

 

[DuneViking]

Hoo boy . . . shucks folks, all I can say is its great to read all the positive stuff peoples a'been saying here, whether for or agin sharing. A big pat on the back to all that 'av r'sisted the temptation to bite!!! IMHO that is what part of what honor and humility are about, that is what good character enables one to do, and for me, sharing thoughts and ideas with those who are wiling to do so has helped, both with techniques, and philosophically.

Hey, if you do not want to share, OK. Please, though, allow me to do so. I think as long as I do not interfere with you or impede your efforts to study as you wish, I should be allowed to to the same.

:soapbox:

 

[MichiganTKD]

Steve,

I never said you weren't 5th Dan, I just said you don't act like one. I can throw my values, beliefs, morals etc. at you if I want. They're called opinions. You can agree or disagree with me. You apparently disagree.

Now, I don't share or hang out with other stylists because of some deep rooted insecurities about my art. Trust me. I've seen fellow students execute some of the most powerful techniques I've ever seen. The fact that we don't go to open tournaments or challenge MMA doesn't take away from that. We are not into thuggery. If you want to go to open tournaments and hang out with MMA out of some deep seated fear that your Tae Kwon Do is lacking in some areas, that's your prerogative. As a traditional student, I follow traditional rules. One being I am a Tae Kwon Do student and scholar and I stay within the Tae Kwon Do community. I would expect nothing less from a traditional karate, kung fu, or aikido student. We have nothing against other arts, but they are not our scene. As aikido students, our class practices and promotes aikido. We do not practice or "hang" with non-aikido students.

Going to open tournaments or similar events to test your art is no different than getting into streetfights to test your technique. Anyone who advocates these methods is, in my opinion (there's that word again!), a thug pure and simple. A junior black belt who is curious about how a style works is one thing. An Instructor who represents his art is quite another.

 

[shesulsa]

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful level.

-Georgia Ketchmark
-MT Moderator

 

[Marginal]

I think we should analyse this video then make some conslusions

http://www.tkd.risp.pl/Juras_HL_Extreme.wmv
:uhyeah:

I'm pretty sure stomping on folks is frowned upon in ITF competition...

 

[TigerWoman]

Can we not accept that MMA and traditional arts are two different animals? Those that want mixed-breeds, go for it. Traditional/closed curriculum arts will change anyway, but it will be more slowly. Slow and sure is better than fast and whoops, what did we do?

This does not need to be an attack of one individual, you might as well attack me as well, as I feel the same about my art that its curriculum shouldn't change quickly. As to opinion, everyone has a right to that. Those that are in traditional arts want the rules, etiquette, morals and teach the same, so that we use it judiciously. We don't teach those that wouldn't. We don't go look for fights. We use it for defense only. Those that are into the "sport" type of TKD are not even into looking for serious damage-its a chess game. TKD, traditionally is a lifestyle not a club membership.

Some of the MMA are in-between this. Some have belts, rules, etiquette, some have none of that. Its just teach the technique to whoever, up to the instructor. But the extreme of this is the no-holds barred ring fighting or calling people out to prove who's art or regimen is better. Whoever wants this, that's your perogative, but that's not what traditional martial arts is about--we don't enjoy fighting for fighting's sake or to prove we are better than someone else.

I hope, gentlemen, that you can agree to disagree and leave it at that. This is not a forum to attack individuals for their opinion and neither is it to denigrate another's choice of regimen. TW

 

[DragonFooter]

I'm pretty sure stomping on folks is frowned upon in ITF competition...

I pretty much agree with you. ITF competition will also frown on ground work as well.
Pretty much from what i gather from the video is this. One, Taekwon-do can survive in a ring match. Two, Taekwon-do can be a champion in a MMA setting if he\she trains in basic grappling\groundwork techniques.
Three, Taekwon-do techniques does work!:uhyeah:

 

[Miles]

I hope, gentlemen, that you can agree to disagree and leave it at that. This is not a forum to attack individuals for their opinion and neither is it to denigrate another's choice of regimen. TW

Blessed are the peacemakers, TW, for they shall inherit the earth.

The name of the thread was "sharing." Many have "shared" their views, which might not be "shared" by others.

Miles

 

[shesulsa]

Look, I think there are a few things to consider when we speak of sharing arts.

I think it is important to keep arts separate - especially during training time, because each style has (I hope) specific training methods and exercises and curriculi structured to forward the progression of its students.

That said, I also think those seeking real defense and tactical training would not be wise to limit their training to one style unless that style is so all-encompassing that the student would not likely be missing anything. There are few styles like this and one would probably find this instruction in a teacher who has been there, done that ... and that, and that, and that, and that, and so on.

I also think it is important to define the purpose a school's headmistress or headmaster has in sharing her/his knowledge - some instructors lean towards preserving tradition, others towards self-defense, others towards competition, etcetera.

The psychology of why traditionalists need tradition or seek tradition is a discussion that will continue to open and irritate wounds as well as bruise egos as will the comparison of this to why others seek self-defense or competition.

Honestly, we all come to the field with different seeds for the garden. Perhaps if we take the time to enjoy the fruit and smell the blossoms we'd spend less time arguing and more time learning and enjoying.

Peace.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

And a salad is always better when there is variety in the ingredients. One can perfect the Lettuce, but it takes the tomato to make the contrast obvious and enjoyable.

(Ok, no more posting before lunch.)

 

[hardheadjarhead]

And a salad is always better when there is variety in the ingredients. One can perfect the Lettuce, but it takes the tomato to make the contrast obvious and enjoyable.

But you only use walnuts when adding a raspberry vinaigrette, damn it. Anybody that does otherwise isn't really a chef. Not even a mere cook. They're at best a prep cook without any sense of a refined palate.

Blessed are the peacemakers, TW, for they shall inherit the earth.

But not the oil and mineral rights thereto.

This does not need to be an attack of one individual, you might as well attack me as well, as I feel the same about my art that its curriculum shouldn't change quickly.

You missed my point entirely, if you're referring to me, Tigerwoman. Again, I have no problem if you don't want to share. In defending this stance you've never attacked another style nor another martial artist. As far as I recall, you've never demonstrated anything other than the values your art professes. And I certainly don't have any problem with that.


Regards,


Steve

 

[TigerWoman]

You missed my point entirely, if you're referring to me, Tigerwoman. Again, I have no problem if you don't want to share. In defending this stance you've never attacked another style nor another martial artist. As far as I recall, you've never demonstrated anything other than the values your art professes. And I certainly don't have any problem with that.

No I didn't miss your point, later I supported it, ie. denigrate, but archaic is a word too, it's opinion. Whether right or wrong it is opinion. Everyone's opinion should be respected, not liked particularly, or agreed with, but respected. I respect both of your opinions too and agree with parts of it too. I can see where both of you are coming from and where you are going, as do others. Peace.

I share plenty, wouldn't mind teaching others TKD technique and have on this forum. But I don't want TKD itself to change quickly, that's not about sharing but identity. Sharing--or splitting our art into techniques only, joining them with throwing, knees, elbows, grappling, etc. is not our art that's making it into something else--Taekwonhapkiaikijuijitsu-do. Not many have the time or talent to do all the arts, well. I personally want to learn more about grappling but I can leave it too. The thing I like about the arts is that each seems to attract like minds and body types. To each his own. There's room for all. TW