Sharing with other Arts

[MichiganTKD]

Here is an interesting question:

Do you think it is proper for an Instructor in, say, Tae Kwon Do, to share his Art with Instructors of other styles and hang out with them?

I have read numerous posts about well known Instructors who didn't hesitate to reach and share with other martial artists.
I don't know the etiquette for other styles. My personal belief, based on information my Instructor has told me about traditional TKD etiquette, is that, as a TKD Instructor, it is improper for me to share my style and technique with non-TKD martial artists and hang out with them in a martial arts setting.

Why?

Because each style wants to be number one, and each Instructor wants to be number one. There is a reason why GM, Ford, and Chrysler do not share and associate unless they have to: professional rivalry.
The whole reason the KTA was formed was because the different kwans openly fought each other for social and political power. And those were all Tae Kwon Do schools. Now try to image TKD vs. karate vs. kung fu vs. hapkido vs. whatever.
It's not that I as a TKD Instructor can't respect other styles (usually), but because each style wants to be number one and has its own etiquette and customs, I don't think TKD Instructors do themselves any favors by teaching and associating as TKD Instructors with other stylists.
I practice aikido as well. However, when I practice aikido, I am not a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, the subject generally does not come up, and the other students don't care about Tae Kwon Do. The Instructor and myself also do not compare TKD and aikido. It is strictly aikido.

 

[mj_lover]

I wouldn't compare ma instructors to the big car companies. Look at it this way, like minded people coming together to talk about something they love. Discuss ma's etc. sharing isn't really a big deal, as long as it is kept in reason.

 

[Ceicei]

There's room in the whole, wide world for all styles of martial arts. If that is kept in mind, then instructors simply acknowledge some students prefer style A, style B, or Z for whatever reason. Competition only exists if instructors/schools make it that way. There is really no need for competition between styles as students seek for what will fit them the best while progressing with their own personal journeys.

Having instructors meet, mingle, and share is one way to learn tolerance and fellowship for each other. For the most part, I think almost all martial arts instructors share the same basic goal: To develop their students into the best kind of people possible, including the characteristics of respect for others and integrity within themselves.

- Ceicei

 

[shesulsa]

Ah yes. Good topic!

Why on earth would people not share their knowledge (to an extent) of their art with others in other arts? Competition is the only answer, for money, status, control, tournament, glory, reputation, you name it. Oh, that's right - there is one other reason given and that's purity in art.

Nowadays, purity in art is EXTREMELY difficult to a) find, b) keep, c)verify. How do we think all the influences on our arts came into being? Warriors fought and observed, came back and modified what they had learned to allow for the improved fighting techniques of the enemy, then the enemy would do the same. So our arts evolved not independent of each other, or in a linear, timely succession as many would like to believe, but together, in and of each other. Because of each other, with each other.

I don't see this as a bad thing, I see this as something that has always occurred.

And yes, MTKD, when one is in Aikido class, one is that rank and in that class, not the other, and vice-versa. Protocol is still important, IMHO.

Separatism and standardization can set an art up for stagnation. Then there will be the renegades who renew, modify, etcetera.

Interesting reading so far and I can't wait to read more.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Here is an interesting question:

Do you think it is proper for an Instructor in, say, Tae Kwon Do, to share his Art with Instructors of other styles and hang out with them?

I have read numerous posts about well known Instructors who didn't hesitate to reach and share with other martial artists.
I don't know the etiquette for other styles. My personal belief, based on information my Instructor has told me about traditional TKD etiquette, is that, as a TKD Instructor, it is improper for me to share my style and technique with non-TKD martial artists and hang out with them in a martial arts setting.

Why?

Because each style wants to be number one, and each Instructor wants to be number one. There is a reason why GM, Ford, and Chrysler do not share and associate unless they have to: professional rivalry.
The whole reason the KTA was formed was because the different kwans openly fought each other for social and political power. And those were all Tae Kwon Do schools. Now try to image TKD vs. karate vs. kung fu vs. hapkido vs. whatever.
It's not that I as a TKD Instructor can't respect other styles (usually), but because each style wants to be number one and has its own etiquette and customs, I don't think TKD Instructors do themselves any favors by teaching and associating as TKD Instructors with other stylists.
I practice aikido as well. However, when I practice aikido, I am not a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, the subject generally does not come up, and the other students don't care about Tae Kwon Do. The Instructor and myself also do not compare TKD and aikido. It is strictly aikido.

Your whole post above so it is in context.

Now to address a certain point.

Why?

Because each style wants to be number one, and each Instructor wants to be number one. There is a reason why GM, Ford, and Chrysler do not share and associate unless they have to: professional rivalry.

Hmmmm, I think you are wrong.

In the news a few years ago, GM and Ford have a partnership for the development of a new 6 speed transmission, including sharing assembly line space at a common plant.

A recent news article stated that GM and Chrysler were working together on hybrid technologies.

GM and Fiat joined together in sunsidaries, GM Powertrain and Fiat Powertrain to form FGP in Europe which is Fiat/General Motors Powertrain. Later Fiat reorganized their company and pulled key assets out and also did not share information, and now both companies are in high level discussion to avoid the court cases.

Sometimes these partnerships or sharing work and sometimes they do not. Hence my three examples off the cuff with one working, one in the works and one failed.

No one forced them to do such legally.

No one or legal entity forced GM to enter into these agreements. It was mutually beneficial to both parties to do so at the time of the initial agreement.

So, personally I think sharing is fine, both in the Automotive world and also in the Martial Arts Community. Now if your organization does not or you as an individual does not then I respect that decision. Yet, I have to ask why are you here, sharing information with those of non TKD studies? If you take the arguement further, not only at martial arts events, but also in your writing snad postings, one could also make the same arguement. And as an indiviual you decide to not post or share that is your choice. If it is a mandate by your organization or an unwritten law, then I would begin to question that organization myself. Why do they not wish for me to see what others have or what I could offer to them? Now, as a general rule for students, and at lower levels, I can see this being a request, as it could be difficult for the student to try to learn the bascis of multiple arts at the same time. Yet, later, I find it diffiuclt to see why they cannot hang out, talk or discuss, martial arts with other members of the martial arts community who may not be or your art or organization.

These questions are not a pesonal attack, they are just my personal thoughts and opinions and questions, that I would ask myself, and if someone asked me I woudl tell them in person also, no matter who was present.

Peace
:asian:

 

[jfarnsworth]

Well I personally like to interact with martial artists of other styles and compare notes. Most notedly my JJ friend. Every now and then he invites me in to practice with his class, we have a good time, laughs, and general commeraderie (sp?) between us. One day he and I were alone practicing when we started doing flow drills. We started with the hub-bud drills. Not even knowing he knew them it was nice to flow with soemone new. We did the punch, knifehand, reverse handsword, back knuckle, then I showed him a couple of variations. We had a good time hugged at the end shared some general self defense and called it a night. We have respect for each other and call each other from time to time for basic questions and what not.
That's my 2 cents worth on the subject.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Ahh, good question: Why am I here then?

I voice my opinions about martial arts in general in the "General Martial Arts" section. I do not get too technical.

I use the Tae Kwon Do forum to express my views about technical, physical, historical, philosophical, and personal aspects of Tae Kwon Do-my area of expertise. I do offer advice about proper technique to a karate student or a hapkido student. Let them talk to their Instructor about proper karate technique.

Keep in mind, there is a difference between the rather anonymous world of the Internet and the MT forum, and actually discussing in person Tae kwon Do with a different stylist. I don't really see a conflict here. it would be different if I were actually meeting with, say, kung fu students to share and compare. It's also different if I were a young college student and in an environment where I was surrounded by different stylists.
But what you do as a 1st-3rd Dan and what you do as a higher ranking Instructor are different. I have associated with other stylists when I was younger and in college. Kinda the nature of the beast. Experience other worlds a little.

What I do have a problem with are Tae Kwon Do (or karate-kung fu-kenpo-etc) who actually teach their art to other martial artists, join martial arts organizations not related to the style they teach, and belong to "Soke" organizations comprised of representatives of all styles. If you are a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, why do you need to belong to a Kung Fu or a General Martial arts Organization?

Again, it's nothing against other organizations or arts. Practice what brings you satisfaction and happiness.

 

[Miles]

Good question/discussion.

I enjoy my friendships and regular training with non-TKD folks. We have common interests within and outside of martial arts. When we train together, it is more of a "my art approaches this problem in this manner" versus "I'm number one or my art is number one." Arts don't have egos, only people have egos.

I train weekly with a gentleman whose background is Wing Chun/Shaolin Long Fist/Kali. He's teaching me Kali and I'm teaching him TKD. We have a great time. I met him in Cleveland OH at a TKD instructor's seminar-he was taping it for a TKD friend of his, now ours. Drove 4 hours to meet and befriend someone who lives less than 10 minutes away.

Miles

 

[Zepp]

I believe it's perfectly acceptable for martial artists of different styles to train together and learn from each other. For the most part, the reasons behind my opinion have already been expressed by others on this thread, and I think it's been said better then I could have said it myself.

I also agree that someone shouldn't accept rank and titles from some organization that's unrelated to what they practice and teach.

Let me ask a hypothetical question: Let's say I'm teaching my own TKD class (probably someday, as I don't plan on quitting) and the advanced students want me to show them how to deal with a particular self-defense situation. Let's say it's how to get out of a headlock. Now I know TKD givs me several possible solutions for this, but what if I felt the best solution I had (and the best method for teaching it) was something that I had learned while studying another art. Should I not teach what I feel to be the best method to my students? If I do teach it, am I not teaching them Tae Kwon Do?

I'll answer my own question, since I can guess what the majority of responses here will be. I absolutely should teach them the technique I feel is best, and not worry where it came from. This is how the different Korean kwans got started in the first place. This is how martial arts evolve to survive to the next generation. As far as I would be concerned, though the technique in question may not have originated in TKD, it would be TKD from now on.

 

[okinawagojuryu]

I am not a TKD stylist , but , yes I do think it is good to share w/ others . We do it all the time , here in FL . Me , & a group of friends have formed a group , called The Florida Budo Tomonokai . It's a group of Black Belts that just get's together to train , share , & for fellowship . No fee's , ego's , or politics . In Okinawa , the masters of Old did it all the time .

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I can't see any reason for not sharing. Joining other organizations facilitates this.

I'm surprised by the number of people who have a xenophobic approach to training. They profess to be worried about preserving the "purity" of their system, keeping it the way the Great Master Sokey Dokey first conceived it in 1876, not letting other arts know the secrets of the system, and blah blah blah.

Cut away the facade and you often find deeply insecure people who are afraid their system...or they themselves...won't measure up if contrasted with other methods. Often these people are very concerned with rank, title and the respect they're afforded by their juniors.


Regards,


Steve

 

[terryl965]

For one reason only the obvious Knowledge why else do you train, I mean come on who are we kidding. Any Ma'er that has been training for more than 5 years look at other Art for Knowledge the more we learn the better we are in our Art and in life!!!!!

 

[Spookey]

Dear Sir,


In reference to the KTA and the fighting between the kwans of Taekwondo...I am friends with an instructor at another TKD school. I am Oh Do Kwan he is Moo Duk Kwan, we have seperate patterns, different technique, and different methodology. Should I share with him but not to Karate as neither practice what I do?


TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[Adept]

I'm somewhat nonplussed by your position, MTKD.

You seem adamant that Taekwondo should not 'share' with other martial arts. And I assume, by extension, that no martial art should share with another.

Why?

 

[MichiganTKD]

One of the reasons why the Korea Tae Kwon Do Association originally formed was because from the time the kwans first came about to when the KTA finally firmly established itself in the early 60's, there was open fighting among the schools for social and political supremacy. I'm not talking verbal conflict or letters to newspapers, I'm talking actual street conflict resulting in injury and death between Chung Do Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan, Chang Moo Kwan etc. members. it was only when the Korean gov't stepped in and ordered all kwan members to join the unifying KTA or lose gov't recognition and support that the member schools agreed (Gen. Choi was instrumental in this BTW). Out of this conflict came the Korean National Free Fighting Championships. Kind of like legal fighting between Kwans. The winners determined which schools were considered most powerful in the TKD world and received gov't support.

Now my other point is this: the traditional symbol for Tae Kwon Do and Korea is the tiger. If you know tigers, tigers are solitary creatures. They do not hunt in packs, and they pretty much keep to themselves. Traditional Tae Kwon Do can be thought of as the same way. A traditional Tae Kwon Do student or Instructor tends to be solitary, practicing with his organization or on his own. He does not associate with karate students, or kung fu, or hapkido, or whatever. Not because he doesn't respect them, but because the philosophies, etiquettes, techniques etc. are different.

It is not that other arts don't have things to offer. They do. Hapkido has some great self defense; aikido and other arts also have different viewpoints that are interesting to understand. However, it is one thing to leave your Tae Kwon Do status at the door and be an aikido student. When I practice aikido, I very seldom mention Tae Kwon Do because it is not relevant and I am in the aikido world. I wear an aikido uniform, use aikido weapons, and practice aikido philosophy. We never talk about Tae Kwon Do.
It is quite another for a Tae Kwon Do Instructor to hang out with other stylists AS a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, talking about TKD technique, philosophy, and politics. If you really want to understand a different art, leave your TKD rank, ideas, attitudes, and thinking behind at the door and practice that art. Do not go to their class with an "I'm also a Tae Kwon Do Instructor who is practicing X martial art." If possible, minimize your TKD background because it would be irrelevant. To me, TKD instructors who associate with other stylists AS TKD instructors do so out of ego. It is not enough to be recognized in their little TKD world, they want recognition from other arts as well. These "Soke Organizations" strike me as a bunch of ego trippers out to impress each other.
It would be the same if a kung fu or aikido student came to my school. I would tell them flat out "leave your aikido mentality at the door. You are not an aikido student in this class. And don't constantly tell me what an aikido student would do in this situation unless I specifically ask." For example. I am not specifically picking on aikido. I actually have great respect for it.

 

[okinawagojuryu]

IMO , think that instructors dont want students to train w/ other instructors because of money . It has nothing to do w/ being faithful , or rude , etc . In the KMA , ecspecially this is prevalent . They say your not being faithful , but that's a bunch of hogwash . What their really saying , to themselves , is this guy's spending money somewhere else , & they can be spending it here w/ me , & I want his money . Now , dont think that I'm trying to bash Korean MA , because I'm not . I spent many years training TSD , & one of my 1st styles was TKD CMK , so I am very familiar w/ the ins & outs of KMA . They try to gain control of you , because they want that money , & nothing more .

You stated "To me, TKD instructors who associate with other stylists AS TKD instructors do so out of ego. It is not enough to be recognized in their little TKD world, they want recognition from other arts as well."
Do you not think that some people just wanna learn , & share , w/o no hidden agendas ? Gen. Hi , the father of modern TKD himself trained both Isshin Ryu , & Shotokan , as he stated in his book . Do you think he had an ego , for doing so ? There's nothing wrong w/ learning , & sharing w/ others , if thats what you choose to do . If not , that's fine too , that's your opinion . But , dont look down on others , because they dont feel the same way as you .

 

[Miles]

However, it is one thing to leave your Tae Kwon Do status at the door and be an aikido student. .......
It is quite another for a Tae Kwon Do Instructor to hang out with other stylists AS a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, talking about TKD technique, philosophy, and politics. If you really want to understand a different art, leave your TKD rank, ideas, attitudes, and thinking behind at the door and practice that art. ...... .

MichiganTKD-I agree that one should "empty your cup" to the extent one can when learning a new art.

I don't think anyone is an entirely blank slate-even first night white belts come to class with preconceptions as to what they will be doing or not doing, or can do or can not do. I am sure that I learn other MA techniques through the eyes of someone who has trained in TKD since the mid-70's-you just don't turn it off.

To me, TKD instructors who associate with other stylists AS TKD instructors do so out of ego. It is not enough to be recognized in their little TKD world, they want recognition from other arts as well. These "Soke Organizations" strike me as a bunch of ego trippers out to impress each other..

Two separate points you are making. I totally disagree with the first, i.e. that one associates with other stylists out of ego-I think that in many, hopefully most instances, it is because we share a common passion-the martial arts and a thirst for more knowledge. What is surprising to me is that most martial arts teach much the same material-in different ways and at different times with different emphasis....it's all good.

As to the second point about these Soke-Dokey orgs-agree w/you 100%. From what I've seen these same folks are wearing multi-colored uniforms with more advertising than a NASCAR racer. They have stripes up and down their multi-colored belts. But, if they need the attention.....

Miles

 

[Andrew Green]

It's kind of odd how people get so entrenched in the label they associate with themselves that they can completely seperate themselves from groups with different labels. Regardless of whether they are trying to do exactly the same thing.

Comparing to car companies is not right, that is a business model and they are competingto get your money. But they will not simply write off anything that the other guys are doing, if Ford comes out with a new, better way of doing something all the others are going to "borrow" it.

And progress gets made. It takes more then the knowledge of how to do it, you also need the ability. If someone gave me complete access to all of Ford's technical data and engineering data I still don't think I could make a car that would run.

How many companies make CD players based off the exact same technology? But yet there are good ones and bad ones.

The way to become the best is to share openly, take what everyone else has, and just do it better. Otherwise everyone else will share and you will live in your little isolated room and get left in the dark...

Of course if the goal is preserving a system as best as possible that is something completely different. But it is no longer about being the best. People still preserve sword work, but don't try to go out onto a modern battlefield and win a war with swords and arrows.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Don't misunderstand. As I stated before, it is one thing as a 1st-3rd Dan black belt to hang out with other stylists. Especially if you are in college, I could hardly blame you for wanting to see what other arts are like. That is the age when you are curious, full of energy, and sometimes want to see how a karate student moves. You are innocent, so to speak.
However, an Instructor is a whole other ball game. Do we have this same mentality in this country? Absolutely. it is not unusual for athletes from different schools to congregate together. They are young and social. However, if the coach from MSU asked the coach from U of M to compare notes and hang out at practices, the U of M coach would like at him like he were insane. Many times, athletic practices are closed to the public so that rivals cannot get in and get the coach's game plan. The game plan becomes apparent on game day and through the course of the season. The coach's future at a school depends on his being able to defeat his rivals. How is he going to do that by hanging out with them and sharing his secrets and knowledge?

 

[okinawagojuryu]

1st of all , I am no beginer , I have been training since I was 5 years old , & am 32 yo now . I have a 4th Dan in both Okinawa Goju Ryu , & TSD , not that it matters . If it was'nt for Gen Hi , training in both Isshin Ryu & Shotokan , you wouldnt be pacticing what you're practicing now . Please take a look at this Photo , on my site : http://okinawagojuryu.org/Portals/8/okimasters.jpg , there you can see the masters of old . They were all from different styles , but they put aside their differences , to train , share , & socialize . Now , as I said before , just because you dont like doing something , doesnt make it right , & you dont have to agree w/ me , but thats your perogrative . However do not look down on others , because they have other beliefs than you .