Shadow Boxing vs Kata fallacy argument.

[drop bear]

I faced a judo guy once. We agreed to fisticuffs, using only our martial training. As he moved to close the distance and lay hands upon me, I drew forth my dao (Chinese big knife/saber) and I relied upon my training with said weapon to quickly remove his brain-cage from his shoulders. I snickered at the sound of his skull bouncing across the flagstones.

I faced a Muay Thai fellow once, under agreement to a trial of martial skills in combative contest. As he approached me with his guard held high and his leg poised to kick, I snatched forth my spear and I ripped out his guts with the razor-edged before pinning him to the tree behind by driving the spear through his chest. I laughed as he screamed and died.

A BJJ fellow wished to cross hands with me. I consented and we signed the customary injury and death releases. When he reached for my jacket I took up my long staff and smashed the end of it down into the joint between his neck and shoulder, driving him down to the pavement. I then split his head like a melon with a second strike, giggling gleefully as his brains painted the floor.

A kickboxer accosted me outside of Kathmandu. He danced near with a jab and I pierced his heart with my jian (Chinese double-edged straight sword). He died instantly; I watched the light of life flee from his eyes as he fell. I later made rude jokes about it on Twitter.

I had word that a boxing champion was heading for my home, determined to avenge some imagined grievance. I saw his approach through my open window. I was ill with the flu that day so I drew forth my rifle and took lazy aim. I pulled the trigger and guffawed as his head exploded in a cloud of bone and brains. I sent a letter via certified post to my true love, describing in lurid detail the mess left on the pavement.

You got any other stupid things that you want to say about “actual combat systems”?

Yeah. When you have to throw the basic concepts out the window and only fight people at disadvantage that is an example of a broken system.

The argument is that you train with a spear and so you are better with a spear. But you needed the spear because your hands were deficient.

So if both people have the spear. Then you are back at a disadvantage and so on.

The idea of a combat system that actually works would be advantage on an even playing field.

That is how you can tell if the system works.

This is basically the celestial tea pot at work. It is a system you can never actually see working.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why is this a problem? The solution is obvious: begin interactive drills and progress to some form of beneficial sparring whenever you feel it is appropriate. Please don’t tell me you would not begin those things until after you have taught them all of the forms?? Why in the world would you think they need to do nothing but forms?

The more forms that you have to train and review, the less time that you can devote in sparring.

IMO, life time is too short to do everything. The day when I get serious into my Chinese wrestling training, the day I gave up my weapon training.

 

[Flying Crane]

The more forms that you have to train and review, the less time that you can devote in sparring.

IMO, life time is too short to do everything. The day when I get serious into my Chinese wrestling training, the day I gave up my weapon training.

There is certainly truth in this. While I do a lot of forms training and I enjoy it, I personally believe that forms can be overdone. They are a good tool, but only one of several that you should use in your training.

My method in my lineage has something like 15-17-ish empty hand forms, which each tend to be quite long. We also have 12-15 or so weapons forms. I’ve learned about a third to a half of that, only completing the beginning and intermediate levels. I like them all and am glad to have them. I’ve seen my Sihing do the others so I am familiar with them. I think that to learn them could be good, they are valuable and worthwhile. But at the same time, if I never learn them I don’t feel like I am actually missing out on anything.

Forms ought to teach and reinforce the major principles, with good technical examples. They do not define the complete body of techniques nor possibilities that the system holds. They present examples and possibilities and should give you the tools to respond spontaneously and effectively, even if what you do is not found in any of the forms.

I feel that forms are a good tool for this. However, you should not need 17 forms to learn these lessons. How many do you need? That depends on the individual, but I will say that if you have learned maybe 5-8 forms and you still don’t understand these lessons then learning 10 more is unlikely to be helpful for you. Perhaps you need to practice a different method that does not contain forms.

Likewise, if you have learned 3-5 forms and those lessons have really sunk in, then learning another 10-15 is unlikely to be especially useful or necessary for you.

I spend a lot of time on my fundamentals, more so than my forms. I think the time is better spent that way. I value my forms, but I try to keep perspective for what they are and for what they are useful. Practicing an endless number of long forms can become a full-time job and leaves little time or energy for other things. I think they becomes counter-productive at that level.

I like weapons as well, for example I practice two spear forms. But again I spend a lot more time working on spear fundamentals and exploring movement possibilities with the weapon in order to be effective with it. I believe that has given me a realistic understanding of how versatile and lethal the spear can be. It is awesome. But practicing the forms is less useful for that. Again, I like them and feel they are important and useful, but keep them in proper perspective. I’ve taken a similar approach with staff, dao, double dao, butterfly swords and jian as well. Learning the forms was useful but mostly because it helped me understand fundamentals and movement with the weapon. Practicing the fundamentals and exploring the movement is more important than doing endless forms. I’ve even forgot some of my weapon forms, though I hope for an opportunity to relearn them when Covid gets under control.

I don’t have much opportunity right now for interactive training with most of this, so I do the best I can by myself. I feel my training is effective for what I do. But I don’t practice my forms as much as I do other things.

I’ve even felt anxiety in the past, over trying to “keep up” with all the forms that I’ve learned. It was liberating when I chose to become focused on one system and I let go of the other systems I had been working on. Developing anxiety over your training obligations is counter-productive. It’s not helpful and it’s not right. That is a sign that something needs to change.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The following issue bother me big time.

- WC has 3 open hand forms and 2 weapon forms.
- Long fist has 10 open hand forms and 8 weapon forms.

When TMA guys are still training in form, BJJ and MMA guys already wrestle and fight in the ring. Of course we need to develop a strong foundation. But how much foundation is enough? We can't stay in elementary school forever and refuse to move to high school.

What's the solution for TMA?

I can think of two approaches that might help. 1) simplify the core curriculum (what’s in forms) down to a solid few necessities. Or 2) use forms for exploration after a foundation is built, so beginners can get to sparring and wrestling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am a little confused, is MMA a style or a training method.

Or a rule set. And the answer is kinda all 3.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can think of two approaches that might help. 1) simplify the core curriculum (what’s in forms) down to a solid few necessities. Or 2) use forms for exploration after a foundation is built, so beginners can get to sparring and wrestling.

The 3rd approach can be:

- Throw away all tradition form.
- Create partner drill from combat situation.
- Create solo drill as partner drill without partner.
- Link solo drills in sequence for teaching, learning, and recording purpose.

PRO:
- Training is the same as fighting.
CON:
- Some traditional information may be lost forever.

Here is an example:

 

[Flying Crane]

The 3rd approach can be:

- Throw away all tradition form.
- Create partner drill from combat situation.
- Create solo drill as partner drill without partner.
- Link solo drills in sequence for teaching, learning, and recording purpose.

PRO:
- Training is the same as fighting.
CON:
- Some traditional information may be lost forever.

Here is an example:

Well, my Sifu has said that If all we want is to learn how to fight quickly, he can train us for a year to accomplish that and it would include no forms.

It’s very intuitive to me how to go about that. It’s all about the foundation and fundamentals and drilling them to be able to use them. I don’t think there is anything mysterious or secret about it, although I suspect how my Sifu would approach it could be different (but similar) from how I might approach it.

It’s an interesting thought: maybe could be a very successful approach to teaching. For a new student, teach no forms until going through that process for the first year. Forms are only taught after that first year when foundation is strong and fundamentals are solid enough to be functional and useful. At that point, forms would enrich the training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For a new student, teach no forms ...

That was what I did for the past 20 years. No form but partner drill. I start to teach form because the COVID-19.

 

[Flying Crane]

That was what I did for the past 20 years. No form but partner drill. I start to teach form because the COVID-19.

Well, I would teach forms but I would do it a bit later in the process. I wouldn’t wait for a global pandemic.

 

[Graywalker]

That was what I did for the past 20 years. No form but partner drill. I start to teach form because the COVID-19.

This is a concept that we mix. We have 3 basic forms called House Forms. They are taught in a two person drill from the get go. These moving partner forms, are the very first things taught.

We teach forms in this manner, through the advanced forms as well. Drills are taught in conjunction with Kata.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The following issue bother me big time.

- WC has 3 open hand forms and 2 weapon forms.
- Long fist has 10 open hand forms and 8 weapon forms.

When TMA guys are still training in form, BJJ and MMA guys already wrestle and fight in the ring. Of course we need to develop a strong foundation. But how much foundation is enough? We can't stay in elementary school forever and refuse to move to high school.

What's the solution for TMA?

Easy. Do both. When I was teaching we has drill days, form days, sparring days. For me 2 hours of sparring training in one day was enough to give me a good boost. The time that I didn't spend sparring was good for healing bruises and and other injuries. Very Light sparring after class was allowed on non sparring days for those who had a thirst for sparring.

I don't think I would do more more than 4 hours a week of sparring training, because I would be afraid that there wouldn't be enough healing time in between sessions.

The schedule that I'm currently using is.

1. Learn the form in small pieces
   
2. Take the small parts that you learn from the form and train them in sparring.

This keeps things in small enough portions that don't overwhelm the student. I would use the application of a technique to determine when the next part of the form will be allowed. Keep in mind this is only for students who want to be able to actually fight with the techniques.

Students who just want to learn the form will still be required to spar but at a lighter level. Instead of the ability to use the technique driving their progress. Learning how to do the form properly will drive their learning path, light sparring will be used to help them understand the techniques in their forms.

I think if I train people this way. I can then have Scholars and Warriors. In other words people who have a lot of knowledge and people who have a lot of personal experience. That way these 2 can compare their knowledge and keep the system fresh. People who only have knowledge of kung fu may not know the various ways to set up and deploy techniques. People who have personal experience will know this stuff and can share those who basically collect the knowledge and keep the knowledge of the system.

From what I can tell the people who really enjoy teaching martial arts are often those who don't actually use it. Those who actually use it, are often the ones who don't teach it, or don't teach it in a large school setting.

Another way to think of it is. Those who forge the weapon are often not the ones fighting in the battle. It's often the user that brings information back to the forger to make improvements. 2 factors of a system depending on each other for application.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The argument is that you train with a spear and so you are better with a spear. But you needed the spear because your hands were deficient.

So if both people have the spear. Then you are back at a disadvantage and so on.

I don't see it this way. If I have the spear then you are at a disadvantage. My goal is to defeat you not to compare open hand skills. If you have a gun and someone attacks you with a knife, do you throw away your gun and pull out your knife?

If I have a spear and you don't have a spear then the deficiency is that you don't have a spear. Or that you have a spear and you don't know how to use it. When we talk about MMA then we talk about the WHOLE OF MMA. When we talk about Kung Fu we strip parts of kung fu and only talk about PARTS OF KUNG FU.

The beginner form in kung fu has a hook that lands on the back of the head. In MMA I'm not allowed to do this. So for this specific technique, I can't even do the beginner stuff. It's one thing to compare specific areas of a system but if you compare then WHOLE OF SOMETHING. Then you can't leave out the other parts.

Chinese Martial Arts is dirty fighting. Our goal is to win the fight. So if I have my staff while I'm walking and someone is stupid enough to pick a fight with me, then they deserve to be hit with my staff.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The 3rd approach can be:

- Throw away all tradition form.
- Create partner drill from combat situation.
- Create solo drill as partner drill without partner.
- Link solo drills in sequence for teaching, learning, and recording purpose.

PRO:
- Training is the same as fighting.
CON:
- Some traditional information may be lost forever.

Here is an example:

This is in line with my #1.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, my Sifu has said that If all we want is to learn how to fight quickly, he can train us for a year to accomplish that and it would include no forms.

It’s very intuitive to me how to go about that. It’s all about the foundation and fundamentals and drilling them to be able to use them. I don’t think there is anything mysterious or secret about it, although I suspect how my Sifu would approach it could be different (but similar) from how I might approach it.

It’s an interesting thought: maybe could be a very successful approach to teaching. For a new student, teach no forms until going through that process for the first year. Forms are only taught after that first year when foundation is strong and fundamentals are solid enough to be functional and useful. At that point, forms would enrich the training.

I’ve taken a bit of the approach you posit. I don’t teach any of the traditional approaches (except where a student needs a slower approach) until a foundation curriculum has been covered. This takes a few weeks (usually less than 3 months), and could be held longer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I would teach forms but I would do it a bit later in the process. I wouldn’t wait for a global pandemic.

Let’s hope that doesn’t become something regular enough to plan curricula by.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is a concept that we mix. We have 3 basic forms called House Forms. They are taught in a two person drill from the get go. These moving partner forms, are the very first things taught.

We teach forms in this manner, through the advanced forms as well. Drills are taught in conjunction with Kata.

I do teach 1 punching drill and 1 kicking drill by using the toolbox concept.

1. Hoop punch, back fist, uppercut, hammer fist, jab, cross, side punch.
2. Front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, back kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Easy. Do both.

The problem is I only meet my guys once a week for 2 hours. 8 hours a month doesn't give me time to do both.

This is why I told my guy that I can't teach him the complete long fist system. When I was a long fist student, I spend 2 hours a day, 5 days a week during school time (M, W, F was my class. Tu, Th I helped my teacher for his night school class). During the summer, I spent 6 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Since to teach a complete system for just 2 hours a week is impossible. That's why I had to change to teach partner drill only. At least partner drill 1 has no logic connection to partner drill 2.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem is I only meet my guys once a week for 2 hours. 8 hours a month doesn't give me time to do both.

Yeah that's a big challenge. I now understand better why you do things the way you do. Only 8 hours every month is a huge challenge. You are literally in a situation where you have to answer the question, "If you only had 8 hours a month to teach someone, what would you teach?" And it's only 2 hours once a week.

Definitely not an easy schedule in terms of being able to teach all that you are able to teach. I could burn 2 hours just talking and demonstrating and helping students drill 2 techniques. It usually takes more than 2 hours of training for them to get a technique down, to where they understand enough of what they should be doing in order to practice on their own. It could be me and my teaching, or it could be the student having difficulty in trusting the technique vs trying to force it to work the way they think it should.

When I was a long fist student, I spend 2 hours a day, 5 days a week during school time (M, W, F was my class. Tu, Th I helped my teacher for his night school class).

This sounds idea.

Since to teach a complete system for just 2 hours a week is impossible. That's why I had to change to teach partner drill only. At least partner drill 1 has no logic connection to partner drill 2.

lol I should have read your entire post before I maid the first comment above lol. I'm very impressed that you are able to accomplish what you do with such time restrictions and that says a lot about the type of students you have. Let me know if your student takes the slow road to learning long fist. I'm curious to see how bad he wants it.

 

[drop bear]

I don't see it this way. If I have the spear then you are at a disadvantage. My goal is to defeat you not to compare open hand skills. If you have a gun and someone attacks you with a knife, do you throw away your gun and pull out your knife?

If I have a spear and you don't have a spear then the deficiency is that you don't have a spear. Or that you have a spear and you don't know how to use it. When we talk about MMA then we talk about the WHOLE OF MMA. When we talk about Kung Fu we strip parts of kung fu and only talk about PARTS OF KUNG FU.

The beginner form in kung fu has a hook that lands on the back of the head. In MMA I'm not allowed to do this. So for this specific technique, I can't even do the beginner stuff. It's one thing to compare specific areas of a system but if you compare then WHOLE OF SOMETHING. Then you can't leave out the other parts.

Chinese Martial Arts is dirty fighting. Our goal is to win the fight. So if I have my staff while I'm walking and someone is stupid enough to pick a fight with me, then they deserve to be hit with my staff.

There is nothing stopping your attacker also grabbing a stick. Negating your martial arts.

 

[Flying Crane]

The problem is I only meet my guys once a week for 2 hours. 8 hours a month doesn't give me time to do both.

This is why I told my guy that I can't teach him the complete long fist system. When I was a long fist student, I spend 2 hours a day, 5 days a week during school time (M, W, F was my class. Tu, Th I helped my teacher for his night school class). During the summer, I spent 6 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Since to teach a complete system for just 2 hours a week is impossible. That's why I had to change to teach partner drill only. At least partner drill 1 has no logic connection to partner drill 2.

Your students need to be practicing on their own time, in addition to the time spent with you. Everybody needs to do this.

If your student does this, you can teach him all of the forms for Longfist, even if you only see him 8 hours a month. Application always takes longer, but if he just wants to learn the forms and is willing to work more gradually on application, I see no reason why it cannot be done.

But he needs to take responsibility for working on and developing what you teach him.