self defense?

[Makalakumu]

I guess I wonder why it is still Tang Soo Do. I suspect that if I was in the Phillipines and started adding Pakistani wrestling the folks in the Phillipines would wonder why I continued to use the name of their art, right? So if Tang Soo Do has a particular culture and a particular heritage and you change the culture and you change the heritage how is this still Tang Soo Do? In like manner, if your teacher wants to teach Tang So Do and then wants to teach knife-fighting, and let his students take each class and mix them together on their own, why not do it that way. Why corrupt an art? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Is the art being corrupted or is it reflecting an individuals artistic expression?

In my opinion, there are always going to be individual differences between instructors. One of the teachers I met up where I live is a 4th dan in TSD and 2nd in chinese kempo. His TSD, consequently, looks very Chinese. They emphasize those characteristics. I have trained and continue to train in Japanese arts - Shotokan and Danzen Ryu Jui jutsu. In my dojang, my prior training colors my application of TSD. Consequently, my students are very good at locks and throws as well as the more "traditional" stuff.

My teacher feels that his blend of Filipino techniques into TSD is appropriate. When he began learning, the system already included them. Then it became "standardized" and the stuff was dropped in favor of dead patterns. My teacher feels that he is teaching a truer, more effective, version of the art. The art that he originally learned.

From the above, one can obviously see that I am not an advocate of standardization. I do not believe that an art can grow well at an individual level where every technique is controlled and everyone is forced to do the same thing.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Marginal]

Zepp is right, but i still think that with a more open mind about begining martial arts will help you understand more and better. Its easy to think of things for only one purpous, and miss the big picture.

I'm kinda curious as to what your aim was when you started training.

 

[kid]

i just moved not to long ago, and when i did i had made some really drastic lifestyle changes. i have basically become a completly differnt person that still thinks the same but doesn't act the same. well i knew and understood that self- discipline was something that i would need inorder to make this change possible. Martial Arts is great way to do that and more. So why did you join?




cause kid said so

 

[glad2bhere]

".....From the above, one can obviously see that I am not an advocate of standardization. I do not believe that an art can grow well at an individual level where every technique is controlled and everyone is forced to do the same thing...."

Two different things.

If "I" want to study a number of arts because it contributes to MY growth, so be it. What I am hearing is that a person made changes in an art and called it by the same name as though it has not been altered. If a person wants to make personal changes in what they do thats on them. But if a person wants to teach an art, then there is a requirement that they honor the methods and material that were agreed upon when the art was constituted.

DO arts change? Certainly but the changes are slow, more evolutionary in nature. One does not get together in the blink of the eye, reconstitute an art and then call it the same thing. There are any number of disagreements in Korea itself about this having been done and that was among Koreans, focusing on a Korean art, in Korea. If THEY have reservations who are people at lesser levels and farther away to make changes and then act like the result is effectively the original, still?
FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Miles]

Is the art being corrupted or is it reflecting an individuals artistic expression?

In my opinion, there are always going to be individual differences between instructors. One of the teachers I met up where I live is a 4th dan in TSD and 2nd in chinese kempo. His TSD, consequently, looks very Chinese. They emphasize those characteristics. I have trained and continue to train in Japanese arts - Shotokan and Danzen Ryu Jui jutsu. In my dojang, my prior training colors my application of TSD. Consequently, my students are very good at locks and throws as well as the more "traditional" stuff.

My teacher feels that his blend of Filipino techniques into TSD is appropriate. When he began learning, the system already included them. Then it became "standardized" and the stuff was dropped in favor of dead patterns. My teacher feels that he is teaching a truer, more effective, version of the art. The art that he originally learned.

From the above, one can obviously see that I am not an advocate of standardization. I do not believe that an art can grow well at an individual level where every technique is controlled and everyone is forced to do the same thing.

upnorthkyosa

Thanks for your answer. I agree that the fusion of the two is not "corrupting," as that word seems too negative. Since there were knife defenses within the art, they perhaps are being enhanced by the blend.

Having said that, I do think there should be some "standardization" in how techniques are performed, terminology used, and curriculum to a certain extent. However, that should be, in my opinion, a required minimum (think of it as college prerequisites) with artistic license granted if it enhances the artist's experience.

Miles

 

[Marginal]

i just moved not to long ago, and when i did i had made some really drastic lifestyle changes. i have basically become a completly differnt person that still thinks the same but doesn't act the same. well i knew and understood that self- discipline was something that i would need inorder to make this change possible. Martial Arts is great way to do that and more. So why did you join?

I joined for physical fitness thinking that since I enjoyed MA related stuff, I'd probably stay interested in the training and keep working out. The campus TKD club happened to be free, so I went there.

It worked.

 

[Miles]

But if a person wants to teach an art, then there is a requirement that they honor the methods and material that were agreed upon when the art was constituted.

Who was there who remembers what was agreed upon when the art was constituted? I am being fascetious....

[QUOTE-glad2bhere]DO arts change? Certainly but the changes are slow, more evolutionary in nature. One does not get together in the blink of the eye, reconstitute an art and then call it the same thing. There are any number of disagreements in Korea itself about this having been done and that was among Koreans, focusing on a Korean art, in Korea. If THEY have reservations who are people at lesser levels and farther away to make changes and then act like the result is effectively the original, still? [/QUOTE]
I agree that the arts change, but don't necessarily agree that the changes are slow (but, that is a relative term, isn't it?). Look at the evolution of Taekwondo and Hapkido in the last 1/2 century. Neither is practiced exactly as it was in 1955.

Miles

 

[Makalakumu]

".....From the above, one can obviously see that I am not an advocate of standardization. I do not believe that an art can grow well at an individual level where every technique is controlled and everyone is forced to do the same thing...."

Two different things.

If "I" want to study a number of arts because it contributes to MY growth, so be it. What I am hearing is that a person made changes in an art and called it by the same name as though it has not been altered. If a person wants to make personal changes in what they do thats on them. But if a person wants to teach an art, then there is a requirement that they honor the methods and material that were agreed upon when the art was constituted.

DO arts change? Certainly but the changes are slow, more evolutionary in nature. One does not get together in the blink of the eye, reconstitute an art and then call it the same thing. There are any number of disagreements in Korea itself about this having been done and that was among Koreans, focusing on a Korean art, in Korea. If THEY have reservations who are people at lesser levels and farther away to make changes and then act like the result is effectively the original, still?
FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce, I think you misunderstand me or I am not communicating myself clearly. My teacher (and I) still teach everything that was taught to us under the umbrella of Tang Soo Do. THAT is our core art. The extras round out the art...

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible. There are a lot of politics involved. My instructor learned from a sixth dan kodanja who learned from an eighth dan who was originally instructed by Hwang Kee (PM me if you would like names). The Art that my instructor learned included a lot of things that were dropped after it was standardized. The "why" these techniques were dropped is the highly political thing. The bottom line is that the art my instructor learned is more effective then what is taught now by the federation.

Alongside the core TSD curriculum we are learning grappling, weapons, and internal techniques. Furthermore, the standards for grading that my instructor learned are far more stringent then what is in place now. For instance, it takes a minimum of five years to earn cho dan under my teacher. In this respect, the art that we are learning is similar to the art that Chuck Norris learned in the 60's.

The real question becomes this, did standardization weaken the art? In direct comparison, our schools performance at the seven state regional tournaments, is always exemplary. I have competed in deh ryun and hyung in three of these tournaments and I have taken first place every single time.. In my personal competitive career, we have dominated the competition. If anything, we are too rough. Our students loose by DQ only.

The bottom line is that I believe that we are learning a truer version of our art from my teacher. Sometimes the effort to standardize can remove the drive for excellence by making everything the same. I guess its kind of like comparing economic systems...Smith vs Marx.

I hope this clarifies things a little.

upnorthkyosa

 

[kid]

hey upnorthkyosa and miles why did you join martial arts? what made you want to stick with it? and marginal glad to have one as yourself in the ranks of martial artists.