Self Defense in Public Schools

[sgtmac_46]

Causation does not equate excuse. I have stated this repeatedly. Allow me to make an analogy. A young man decides to start smoking cigarettes because he thinks it's cool. He takes health class and finds out how bad it is for him and he doesn't care. His parents find out and think, ah well, at least he's not doing drugs. Later he finds he doesn't really want to be a smoker any longer but finds the addiction too tough to break. He tries nicotine gum, the patch, hypnosis, but nothing works because he only tries half-heartedly and, after all, he's an adult male and has made his own bed. He develops cancer and sues the tobacco company because they made cigarettes addictive by adding nicotine and other chemicals to the tobacco ensuring the smoker will need to feed their habit and ensure the flourishing profits.

Now, are the illegal and morally reprehensible actions by the cigarette company responsible for his cancer? No, he is responsible because of his choice to smoke. However, did the actions of the tobacco company aide in his addiction and, therefore, the deterioration of his health? Yes. What about the man's parents when he began to smoke? Are they responsible? Yes. Rather than address the issue with the boy they thanked heaven he was not engaged in drug use.

Some folks, I suppose, are far more comfortable pointing fingers, naming names and finding an excuse as to why they don't have to lift a finger to help another human being. Keep studying sociopathic behavior.

And you perceive the difference to be what, exactly?

... as opposed to a clinical point of view?

Indeed. So a sociopath is just a monster, right? A born abbhorition of nature, a whacko who cannot be helped? Goodness. Shall we just line up the entire prison population and just gun them all down? Why not? They're monsters and cannot be helped or rehabilitated, then why the heck are we spending money on them having them pay their debt to society? Let's just off them all and rid our nation of all the sociopaths? Hmmmm??

Again, you refuse to read my statement and insist on twisting its context. Isn't this is a sociopathic trait?

You don't see this as a form of neglect? They were given things, not love or time or consideration or an ear to bend. Anyone can dole out presents. Apparently what some of us lack is the ability to give heart.

When the young mind encounters unfairness, neglect in spite of good intention, it becomes quite twisted and will defend every shred of its own truth. They put others down because that's how their damaged minds came to deal with the ostracism. It is a dangerous shift in mentality that, when caught early, may be treated - not always successfully, but even one saved life is worth the effort ... that is, in my opinion it is.

This is the sickness of the mind taking over. A child with narcissistic thinking is very typical of the child who has everything but what he needs.

You were a popular kid, weren't you? When one is ostracized and no one else feels you're worth the breath they used to speak your name you take one of several roads. One of those roads is self-devaluation. This means you buy into what others say about you and demonstrate to you in that you are worthless, mindless and not necessary of being alive. These are the ones who self-mutilate, self-denegrate. Some find drugs, some find violence some find both. Some find peace at the end of a rope or on the business end of a gun. Another road is to so intensely defend oneself as to aggrandize one's own worth, hence narcissism. When one travels far down this path the mind does twist enough to incur violence upon others and, sometimes, eventually on oneself. The middle path is those who have a taste of both - a bit of an inferiority complex accompanied by the knowledge that most people are pretty uncaring, self-centered, label-slapping sons-of-bitches who don't give a good goddamn who one is, whether they have anything special to offer to the world. The middle path and the externally violent path both scratch at finding some sense of self-worth, hence the narcissistic traits. Those on the middle path understand both sides that pull them.

I have studied the DSM-IV. Thanks.

That, sir, is your opinion.

I have no possible way of fulfilling the self-esteem needs of this type of person, it is far too late for that. Further I have never stated that the real victims of Columbine were the two that did the killing. If we are not human enough to analyze the criminal mind and its causes (which, in this case we must do forensicly) then we are no better than the monstors you purport to walk the earth. I don't think looking at a murderer straight in the eye and telling him all he ever needed was love and giving him a big warm fuzzy is going to do any good. You have never asked me what I think the answer is to the problem of youth violence, only told me that I'm wrong to think it, whatever it might be because it does not conform to your ideas. It further sounds to me like you are not interested in hearing any other opinion but your own and therefore, not worthy of my opinion.

As I said before ... bully for you.

If you had studied sociopathology you would know what the difference is. An illness is something wrong with a person who, if not for the illness, would be well. Sociopathology is an illness of the complete mind. In other words, it is what the person IS not what they have. In that sense they ARE a monster. And it's not me who seems hellbent on ignoring the opinions of others. I listened to you, and your argument is nothing knew. As for lining the monsters in prison up and shooting them, that's probably a pretty effective idea, and one I would subscribe to.

"A child with narcissistic thinking is very typical of the child who has everything but what he needs"...discipline. A social order that believes no one is responsible for nothing created these two. That's what you seem to be trying perpetuating. You have said nothing that suggest that you are saying otherwise. You are proposing to empathize with these monsters, what I propose examining them dispassionately. The problem with everything you've said is that it is tainted with emotionalism and empathy, and that clouds your ability to look at this subject objectively.

Also, why must I have been the popular kid in school, because I don't understand massacring 13 people? Give me a break.

"They're monsters and cannot be helped or rehabilitated, then why the heck are we spending money on them having them pay their debt to society? Let's just off them all and rid our nation of all the sociopaths?" Well, considering rehabilitation is a joke and the majority of violent crimes are committed by the same small group of people...YES!!! You just don't get it do you? Every sarcastic question you ask, in reality, defeats your argument because the real answers to those questions aren't the ones you believe.

It's obvious you are a good, caring person. That's very obvious. I just think you're a bit naive. It's also obvious that you believe the whole rest of the world, deep down, is just like you. The truth is, however, that sociopaths exist,and if you ever come face to face with one in his natural habitat, you will come back in this forum and apologize for everything you've said to me. Lets both hope that doesn't happen. We are not all born with the same needs, the same desires. We are not all born caring, kind creatures. Some of us are born a little darker, and those people are willing to rip what they feel they deserve from you if it suits them to do so. Your attempts to empathize with them only aids them. Empathy is not true understanding. I know criminals that spend their whole lives manipulating the empathy of well intentioned people just like you. Those people think they are getting "understanding" from the criminal, but the criminal is merely manipulating their emotions to get what they want.

 

[MJS]

What i'd prefer is that you stop making excuses for mass murder and pretending that you can change a sociopath with a counseling session. Sociopathology is not an illness of the mind, it is an ill mind. I know of what I speak, i've dealt with hundreds of sociopaths in my line of work, i've spent the last ten years studying sociopaths, and i'm not just a laymen, i'm working on my masters in psychology, with an emphasis on aggression and sociopathology. I plan on spending the rest of my career studying this type of behavior from a realistic point of view. This is a subject matter that I take very seriously, and the idea that you can treat a sociopath as if he has an "illness" is absurd and usually spouted by people who have never had the "honor" of dealing with this type of person.

If a counseling session(s) will not help these people, then they need to be taken from the general population. Look at Michael Ross. This guy killed 8 women. Now, you're not going to tell me that during the course of his life, he was not showing any signs of a troubled person. I'm pretty sure that he was, unfortunately, nobody noticed these signs and 8 people got killed. There was a story about a guy that was renting a house from a family in CT. That family had a litter of puppies. This guy wanted one, but the family said no, due to the fact that they did not feel that he could properly care for the dog. He proceeded to take a knife, and slit the throats of all 6 puppies. 5 died, and one was able to be saved. Now, this guy is showing no signs of an illness?? I think he is!!!

Sociopaths are not sick, they are not in need of help, they are predators. These boys weren't bullied to committing mass murder, that is the most idiotic idea i've ever heard. These boys did not even grow up in a bad environment. They had parents who gave them everything, nice clothes, money, video games, everything. It wasn't that they were different that created conflict in school, it's that they thought they were superior to everyone around them. That is what brought them in conflict with others.

Clothes, games, etc...all material things. Did these kids get love from their parents? Did the parents take time out of their day to socialize with their kids? If they had, they might have noticed that they were showing signs of being troubled.

Harris exhibited clear signs of sociopathology with the kind of narcissistic thinking typically encountered in this type of person. He believed he was superior, not inferior, to those he killed. The problem isn't that these boys were bullied and ignored, the problem is that these boys thought that they were superior to everyone around them, and that they had the right to murder whoever they wanted for their own perverse pleasure. They were sheep to him, they were victims in his power fantasy. I'm still waiting for the name of one of the bullies they murdered.

So Harris was showing some signs of being controlling?? I'm sure a man that is controlling of his wife did not just wake up one morning and say, "Ya know, I've been nice to my wife for the past "X" number of years of our marrige. I think today I'm going to start being a control freak, not letting her have any money unless she asks me, not let her go out unless she asks me, etc."

Further, many of these types of personality traits show increasing evidence of having genetic root causes. The Narcissism displayed by Harris is very typical of most narcissists, over-inflated sense of self, pathological lying, power fantasies, a sense of "specialness" and "uniqueness", a feeling that you have some sort of lofty purpose. Basically narcissistics are self-centered, egotistical, and have an exaggerated sense of self-importance and the expectation that they should be considered superior without any commensurate achievements. Grandiosity and preoccupation with POWER is a hallmark of Narcissists. Add sociopathology, the idea that others are not worthy of compassion, do not matter, and are only important as objects, and you have a killer like Harris.

Again, it looks like they are showing this obsession with Power.

Don't you find it ironic that the more well intentioned people like you try and fulfill the self-esteem needs of this type of person, the more counciling sessions, the more we tell kids them are not really responsible, that they are victims, the MORE school shootings we have. At some point you might want to consider the possibility that maybe you have the wrong idea.

Speaking for myself only here, all I'm simply saying is that something, anything, should have been done for these kids.

Mike

 

[47MartialMan]

Speaking for myself only here, all I'm simply saying is that something, anything, should have been done for these kids.

I agree, so you had spoke for me also

 

[shesulsa]

As for lining the monsters in prison up and shooting them, that's probably a pretty effective idea, and one I would subscribe to.

You have just revealed yourself. Thank you, you have made my point.

You are proposing to empathize with these monsters, what I propose examining them dispassionately. The problem with everything you've said is that it is tainted with emotionalism and empathy, and that clouds your ability to look at this subject objectively.

No, I am proposing looking at these young men for what they are - humans who went wrong - and finding out why so that we can keep it from happening again. Problem is, there are more people who seem to not care than there are people who do. It's the ones who care who belong in the psychoanalytical fields because they have the potential to do something about it.

Also, why must I have been the popular kid in school, because I don't understand massacring 13 people? Give me a break.

No, because you haven't a clue what the mind does to cope from the other side of the coin, nor do you care.

"They're monsters and cannot be helped or rehabilitated, then why the heck are we spending money on them having them pay their debt to society? Let's just off them all and rid our nation of all the sociopaths?" Well, considering rehabilitation is a joke and the majority of violent crimes are committed by the same small group of people...YES!!! You just don't get it do you? Every sarcastic question you ask, in reality, defeats your argument because the real answers to those questions aren't the ones you believe.

I suggest that anyone who so passionately argues that those who are not of sound mind should be massacred is a monster himself and you inability to see that suggests your own neurosis.

It's obvious you are a good, caring person. That's very obvious. I just think you're a bit naive. It's also obvious that you believe the whole rest of the world, deep down, is just like you. The truth is, however, that sociopaths exist,and if you ever come face to face with one in his natural habitat, you will come back in this forum and apologize for everything you've said to me. Lets both hope that doesn't happen. We are not all born with the same needs, the same desires. We are not all born caring, kind creatures. Some of us are born a little darker, and those people are willing to rip what they feel they deserve from you if it suits them to do so.

I was born into a family of monsters. I lived among them, was raised among them, ate with them, slept with them. I have fallen victim to them repeatedly. I almost became one. I know more about monsters than your books and study and misguided analysis can ever hope to afford you.

Your attempts to empathize with them only aids them. Empathy is not true understanding. I know criminals that spend their whole lives manipulating the empathy of well intentioned people just like you. Those people think they are getting "understanding" from the criminal, but the criminal is merely manipulating their emotions to get what they want.

Empathy is not true understanding, I agree. And yes, they do manipulate the emotions of others. After all my experiences with monsters and sociopaths I have been able to find a road where I could heal my mind and maintain a spiritual perspective as well.

You seem to think I would waste my time trying to convert hopeless cases. You know not of which you type. You do not want to know what I have done personally to extracate myself from a very dark world.

What I have is the desire to prevent tragedys from happening and raise awareness so that the ignorant masses who think buying their children many things and plopping them down in front of the television or the X Box is "cool parenting," and how to discern the difference between normal teenage behavior and cries for help.

What I am saying is that these boys are not the only culprits in the tragedy. Kids will be bullied. Big deal. But for adults to join in the ostrcism of these young boys is what pushed them over the edge. If you decide to not subscribe to that idea is your business. You go right ahead and practice your convenient, ignorant, new sociopathology and Hitlerism.

 

[Cryozombie]

You still haven't pointed to one single victim that allegedly victimized these killers. Without that, you've already lost this argument.

They took their anger out on the Instution that allowed it to happen.

The School. The Other Students.

To put it more plainly... EVERYONE THAT WASNT ON THEIR SIDE.

Lemme use your argument for a moment...

If they were just psychopaths, they would have killed anyone they came across...

You still haven't pointed to one single victim that was a friend to these killers. Without that, you've already lost this argument.

 

[47MartialMan]

So is self defense needed or self-awareness? What is to be done?

 

[shesulsa]

I'd like to read your opinion expressed in more than one fast sentence, MartialMan.

 

[47MartialMan]

Actually my opinion is divided and inconclusive.

 

[MJS]

Actually my opinion is divided and inconclusive.

Well, this is a forum, designed for friendly discussion, so I, like Shesulsa, would like to hear your thoughts.

Mike

 

[47MartialMan]

Again, I must state, my opinion is divided and inconclusive. In other words, per this matter, I can go either way of the discussion because of the information thus far, but the info is not enough to have a particular standpoint. So far, both opposing views have good points. This is like my study of Christianity and martial arts. Very hard to come to a single conclusion. Although I enjoy reading and learning.

 

[shesulsa]

So then, could you please express to us your feelings on both sides of the matter, MartialMan?

 

[47MartialMan]

Most of us live in a society that problems or situations arise in life. Such as many were not thought about decades ago. Now, don't misconstrue this as they did not exist. These new societies want to "point fingers" and/or take no responsibility or action. When certain ones finally take action, they are criticized from others, that form counter-groups. From continued oppositon and counter-points, (like US governement per Democrats/Republicans, which the founding father had not dreamed or wanted to be this way), progress is not made soon enough or not at all. Given this a "self defense in public schools" turned into issues of morality, or moral character, education is the key. Not emotional responses and/or finger-pointing.
So my question stands:
Is self defense needed or self-awareness? What is to be done?

 

[sgtmac_46]

If a counseling session(s) will not help these people, then they need to be taken from the general population. Look at Michael Ross. This guy killed 8 women. Now, you're not going to tell me that during the course of his life, he was not showing any signs of a troubled person. I'm pretty sure that he was, unfortunately, nobody noticed these signs and 8 people got killed. There was a story about a guy that was renting a house from a family in CT. That family had a litter of puppies. This guy wanted one, but the family said no, due to the fact that they did not feel that he could properly care for the dog. He proceeded to take a knife, and slit the throats of all 6 puppies. 5 died, and one was able to be saved. Now, this guy is showing no signs of an illness?? I think he is!!!



Clothes, games, etc...all material things. Did these kids get love from their parents? Did the parents take time out of their day to socialize with their kids? If they had, they might have noticed that they were showing signs of being troubled.



So Harris was showing some signs of being controlling?? I'm sure a man that is controlling of his wife did not just wake up one morning and say, "Ya know, I've been nice to my wife for the past "X" number of years of our marrige. I think today I'm going to start being a control freak, not letting her have any money unless she asks me, not let her go out unless she asks me, etc."



Again, it looks like they are showing this obsession with Power.





Speaking for myself only here, all I'm simply saying is that something, anything, should have been done for these kids.

Mike

Like what? Those who usually say "Something should be done" usually don't have a clue what. I'm open for realistic suggestions.

 

[sgtmac_46]

They took their anger out on the Instution that allowed it to happen.

The School. The Other Students.

To put it more plainly... EVERYONE THAT WASNT ON THEIR SIDE.

Lemme use your argument for a moment...

If they were just psychopaths, they would have killed anyone they came across...

You still haven't pointed to one single victim that was a friend to these killers. Without that, you've already lost this argument.

That's hillarious. You argument is that this wasn't a massacre of 13 innocent people, it was an act of protest? So shooting innocent people is fine, the fact that they didn't shoot anyone they personally liked is good enough for you? That is the stupidest thing i've heard in a long career of hearing stupid things.

 

[sgtmac_46]

You have just revealed yourself. Thank you, you have made my point.

No, I am proposing looking at these young men for what they are - humans who went wrong - and finding out why so that we can keep it from happening again. Problem is, there are more people who seem to not care than there are people who do. It's the ones who care who belong in the psychoanalytical fields because they have the potential to do something about it.

No, because you haven't a clue what the mind does to cope from the other side of the coin, nor do you care.

I suggest that anyone who so passionately argues that those who are not of sound mind should be massacred is a monster himself and you inability to see that suggests your own neurosis.

I was born into a family of monsters. I lived among them, was raised among them, ate with them, slept with them. I have fallen victim to them repeatedly. I almost became one. I know more about monsters than your books and study and misguided analysis can ever hope to afford you.

Empathy is not true understanding, I agree. And yes, they do manipulate the emotions of others. After all my experiences with monsters and sociopaths I have been able to find a road where I could heal my mind and maintain a spiritual perspective as well.

You seem to think I would waste my time trying to convert hopeless cases. You know not of which you type. You do not want to know what I have done personally to extracate myself from a very dark world.

What I have is the desire to prevent tragedys from happening and raise awareness so that the ignorant masses who think buying their children many things and plopping them down in front of the television or the X Box is "cool parenting," and how to discern the difference between normal teenage behavior and cries for help.

What I am saying is that these boys are not the only culprits in the tragedy. Kids will be bullied. Big deal. But for adults to join in the ostrcism of these young boys is what pushed them over the edge. If you decide to not subscribe to that idea is your business. You go right ahead and practice your convenient, ignorant, new sociopathology and Hitlerism.

Sounds like you're too caught up in your own personal story to view the world through dispationate lenses. Get help for yourself, but don't pretend to have any answers.

I may be a bit of a monster myself, but it takes a little bit of a monster to deal with monsters. As you've demonstrated, most sheep refuse to acknowledge they even exist. So i'll continue to deal with the monsters, and you can continue to represent the ungrateful grasseaters of the world who have a fantasy that simply caring hard enough will make the world a better place. Sounds like a cartoon. As far as my knowledge of monsters being academic, I can assure it is not. I've arrested men who've boiled the skin off babies because they wouldn't stop crying. If you want to sit in your ivory tower and pretend those people don't exist, or, that they aren't really evil, you do that, but don't pretend you do it from any real understanding. My empathy for killers ended when I had to start knowing them and their victims. Further, it isn't your empathy that protects you from monsters, it's "monsters" like me.

The real failure of Columbine is that the police response was outdated for an active shooter incident, and was geared toward a classic hostage situation. Not the fault of the officers, but it was outdated. Had the responding officers directly engaged Harris and Klebold, either wounding them, killing them outright, or forcing them to commit suicide prematurely, more lives could have been saved. I train my officers that neutralizing the active shooter if possible is the appropriate response to this type of situation, as active shooters will continue to kill until they run out of targets. I could care less if these kids had rough childhoods while they are killing innocent people, it doesn't matter to me. Neutralizing the threat is what is important. I also teach my officers that, yeah, going home at the end of your shift is important, but it's not the most important thing. If they're not willing to place themselves in harms way to protect innocent people, they should find another line of work. The difference between my type of monster and the type that kills innocent people is...i'm willing to place my monster body in between those monsters and their innocent victims, and i'm prepared to die to keep innocent people alive. Selfish of me huh? You might want to point that empathy glass inward before you start acting as though you care so much. Because I find it kind of bizarre that you can justify the murder of 13 innocent people so easily, but decide to get angry at me for suggesting that maybe they are responsible for what they did. You talk about defaming two monsters as wrong, but call me Hitler just for disagreeing with you. You might not have come out of your experiences as alright as you let on, because it seems your empathy stops with the killers of innocent people.

 

[MJS]

Like what? Those who usually say "Something should be done" usually don't have a clue what. I'm open for realistic suggestions.

Go back and re read my posts. I have given many suggestions.

Mike

 

[Shogun]

Not to stray back on topic or anything.....

These two kids got into it really good, verbally, a couple years ago, when I was in high school. One day, one of the guys decided to push the other over a 5 foot wall, then stomp on his head. the other got up in a daze and started swinging. he ended up just glancing the other kid, but got a longer suspension because he was seen "punching" the other guy.

Personally, I think if you have the choice between fighting and not fighting, for the same punishment, go ahead and fight. I did.

 

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MJS
-MT Moderator-

 

[Michael Billings]

An additional Note: The sarcastic tone in posts needs to be monitored a bit more closely. That is part of MJS's "polite and respectful" Mod Note.

Thanks,
-Michael Billings
-MT Super Moderator-

 

[lvwhitebir]

I've arrested men who've boiled the skin off babies because they wouldn't stop crying.

This is a thread about self-defense at school. I believe your view would be more correct for a prison setting. We're talking about 13-year-old kids, not 33-year-old hardened killers.

I could care less if these kids had rough childhoods while they are killing innocent people, it doesn't matter to me.

I'm sorry I brought up Columbine. No one here has said they were innocent in what they did. The point is we need to understand how to prevent future acts of atrocities, which I think is usually possible. Not everyone is a born mass-murderer. Sometimes society makes them. In this case, the school environment was a huge influence on these kids; if we remove the influence that made them violent, maybe we can prevent future violence. If we don't try, we won't prevent anything.

Because I find it kind of bizarre that you can justify the murder of 13 innocent people so easily

I haven't read anything that someone said that justifies their actions, so I think your response is misdirected.

WhiteBirch