Self Defense in Public Schools

[loki09789]

My point exactly.

But, your point does not address the fact that the violence/bullying/problems that happen openly in a public school will still happen. It will just happen after school in places and ways that the school will not report, know about or be liable for....

Sometimes there is a confusion because public schools are required to report so much more than private schools....some private schools simply don't report these things publically so that an honest side by side comparison can be made. And it would really impact enrollment/money if they did.

One of the highest number of teen pregnancies was at a local all girls private catholic school. That was compared to ALL the schools in the district short of the city schools. That means that this smaller population of all girls had MORE pregnancies than larger populated public schools did.

It is like comparing domestic violence and admitting that it may only look like it is 'on the rise' because it is simply being reported more than in the past. It is/was happening, just not made public or discussed.

 

[Deuce]

I agree with the many posts which suggest self-defense should be accepted in cases where no other alternative is conceivable, such as avoiding altercations all together. I do however have a problem with the standard no violence clauses which result in both parties being subject to suspension for a pre-determined amount of time. As such, something similar should be inbedded within the rules and school policy, but I think each situation should be looked at individually, taking into account past occurences and performances of all involved. It seems unfair that a kid who is mild mannered, good in school, and no history of violence should have to incure punishment because he was jumped, pinned to the ground, and used force in self defense to escape the situation.

 

[loki09789]

I agree with the many posts which suggest self-defense should be accepted in cases where no other alternative is conceivable, such as avoiding altercations all together. I do however have a problem with the standard no violence clauses which result in both parties being subject to suspension for a pre-determined amount of time. As such, something similar should be inbedded within the rules and school policy, but I think each situation should be looked at individually, taking into account past occurences and performances of all involved. It seems unfair that a kid who is mild mannered, good in school, and no history of violence should have to incure punishment because he was jumped, pinned to the ground, and used force in self defense to escape the situation.

The idea is not just a punitive action. It also removes BOTH parties from the building for a period of time to let themselves and their friends (who might be interested in retaliation or something along those lines) cool off. It also sends a message to the REST of the school that the behavior is not tolerable.

The policy has gone under scrutiny many times and the 'cooling off period' logic is the one that seems to be the most rationally and widely accepted justification.

The thing to remember isn't how a teen or outsider percieves the suspension as much as the intent (and how well that intent is communicated to the parents and students involved) of the administration that is implimenting it.

Another benefit is it gives the administration time to sift through the details to figure out fault/culpability. I have heard of cases where the obviously less 'guilty' party got a reduced suspension or was given chances to shorten their time through some community service type of option AFTER THE INITIAL administration action was taken.

 

[Han-Mi]

Moral of the story: If you're gonna get suspended, it might as well be worth it.

FIGHT BACK

 

[Flatlander]

Another benefit is it gives the administration time to sift through the details to figure out fault/culpability. I have heard of cases where the obviously less 'guilty' party got a reduced suspension or was given chances to shorten their time through some community service type of option AFTER THE INITIAL administration action was taken.

Which is fine, provided that there is no other school policy dictating that after a certain number of suspensions, (say 3, for example), that an automatic expulsion or other punishment is not levied. Specifically, the suspensions received by the victims in these circumstances should not count as applying toward that total. That would be unjust, and run counter to the intent of the suspensions applied to the victims.

 

[47MartialMan]

I cannot count the number of detentions, suspensions, and expulsions that I had.......geez, if I had a dollar (or two) fir each.........

 

[lvwhitebir]

Moral of the story: If you're gonna get suspended, it might as well be worth it.

FIGHT BACK

Are we reading the same thread? I don't think I got that moral at all. I thought I mentioned this already, but... Fighting for no other reason than just because you're going to get a suspension is stupid and potentially life threatening. That's like saying you're going to prison anyways so you might as well shoot the clerk on the way out the door.

WhiteBirch

 

[sgtmac_46]

But, your point does not address the fact that the violence/bullying/problems that happen openly in a public school will still happen. It will just happen after school in places and ways that the school will not report, know about or be liable for....

Sometimes there is a confusion because public schools are required to report so much more than private schools....some private schools simply don't report these things publically so that an honest side by side comparison can be made. And it would really impact enrollment/money if they did.

One of the highest number of teen pregnancies was at a local all girls private catholic school. That was compared to ALL the schools in the district short of the city schools. That means that this smaller population of all girls had MORE pregnancies than larger populated public schools did.

It is like comparing domestic violence and admitting that it may only look like it is 'on the rise' because it is simply being reported more than in the past. It is/was happening, just not made public or discussed.

That's because parents don't take responsibility for their children. If a 17 year old girl gets out and gets drunk and pregnant, that's her fault. If a 12 year old girl does it, it's the parents fault. There is a degree of accountability tha needs to be taken. Your statements don't really alter anything. My statements on the matter were about my child and my decision that private school is a better environment.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Thought those interested in our earlier discussion about Harris/Klebold and Columbine might be interested in reading an indepth discussion on the Gene Expression website. http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002115.html

The conclusion of many experts was that Klebold, without Harris, might have received help. Klebold fit the pattern many here were claiming of an angry young man that needed help. Harris, however "was not a wayward boy who could have been rescued. Harris, they believe, was irretrievable. He was a brilliant killer without a conscience, searching for the most diabolical scheme imaginable. If he had lived to adulthood and developed his murderous skills for many more years, there is no telling what he could have done. His death at Columbine may have stopped him from doing something even worse."

I found it pretty interesting.

 

[Martial_Maniac]

In my school district, if any contact is made, it's fair to suspend both parties. So basically, i would get suspended (not as severe as the other guy) if I blocked a punch. This is what happened to my insructor's son. A guy was picking on him cuz of his size and ended up trying to hit him. So he blocked the punch, and he got suspended for a week. This world is just not a fair place.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Thought those interested in our earlier discussion about Harris/Klebold and Columbine might be interested in reading an indepth discussion on the Gene Expression website. http://www.gnxp.com/MT2/archives/002115.html

The conclusion of many experts was that Klebold, without Harris, might have received help. Klebold fit the pattern many here were claiming of an angry young man that needed help. Harris, however "was not a wayward boy who could have been rescued. Harris, they believe, was irretrievable. He was a brilliant killer without a conscience, searching for the most diabolical scheme imaginable. If he had lived to adulthood and developed his murderous skills for many more years, there is no telling what he could have done. His death at Columbine may have stopped him from doing something even worse."

I found it pretty interesting.

There is a book out now called "The Sociopath Next Door," by Martha Stout. Sounds like you and I both would find it an interesting book.

One in 25 American males are estimated as sociopathic. That is a higher rate than colon cancer and other "alarming" diseases.

Jonathon Kellerman has one out about this too, called "Savage Spawn." He's not just a fiction writer, as it turns out.


Regards,


Steve

 

[sgtmac_46]

There is a book out now called "The Sociopath Next Door," by Martha Stout. Sounds like you and I both would find it an interesting book.

One in 25 American males are estimated as sociopathic. That is a higher rate than colon cancer and other "alarming" diseases.

Jonathon Kellerman has one out about this too, called "Savage Spawn." He's not just a fiction writer, as it turns out.


Regards,


Steve

Sounds like an interesting book. Retired Colonel Dave Grossman has an excellent book on the subject of aggression in general, and touching on sociopathy in particular, in his book "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" and he has an excellent website http://www.killology.com/.

It's an interesting subject and there are many people who don't even believe true sociopaths exist because they've never encountered one or never knew what they were looking at.

 

[Skitzo]

I'm a teacher in a public school. In the past year I have seen two kids attack teachers, One of the two kids has now physically attacked 3 teachers at my school and has been suspended 28 days so far. But guess who the "Child Abuse Service" was called against? The teacher!!! In the past 2 years we have had SEVEN teachers investigated by C.A.S and everyone found innocent. In four of the cases, the teachers were not even in the same room as the kid!!! (they just gave them a poor test score).

We are not permitted to touch a kid (even to pat them on the shoulder and say "Hey, Good job on the test" is considered assault) If a fight breaks out, we are to walk up to the fight with our hands behind our back and say 3 times "Please stop!" "Please Stop!" "Please Stop!"

If a little kid tries to hug us (you know how they grab your leg) we have to avoid contact at all costs and if we can't, we put our hand on their forehead and keep our arm straight so they can't get near us.

Parents and students are upset because teachers will not intervene. Well, think of it: If two kids are fighting and I step in to stop them, one may say I hurt him and point to a injury caused in the fight; AND his friends will back him up. So, now I would have lost my job, I can't pay my mortage and my family (new baby) is in REAL trouble, I would have just blown 5 years of University including a Masters Degree, I would be shamed in the community, I would never be able to teach again, how would I eat?!?!?..... all because a couple of kids are fighting over who has a better pair of shoes?!?!?!

Teachers do not have the same rights as other adults in our society. If a kid makes a false claim, nothing will happen to him; but the teacher is sent through the ringer. If anyone is inerested, Pick up a book called "Guilty until proven Innocent". Two lawyers in Colorado have made a career of defending teachers from false accusations. Many kids have seen TV shows where students get a teacher ousted and think it's funny - but in reality, when they do this, they are messing with our future and our ability to put food on the table.

 

[47MartialMan]

That's because parents don't take responsibility for their children. If a 17 year old girl gets out and gets drunk and pregnant, that's her fault. If a 12 year old girl does it, it's the parents fault. There is a degree of accountability tha needs to be taken. Your statements don't really alter anything. My statements on the matter were about my child and my decision that private school is a better environment.

Yes, a private school is a better environment-but why?

 

[47MartialMan]

In my school district, if any contact is made, it's fair to suspend both parties. So basically, i would get suspended (not as severe as the other guy) if I blocked a punch. This is what happened to my insructor's son. A guy was picking on him cuz of his size and ended up trying to hit him. So he blocked the punch, and he got suspended for a week. This world is just not a fair place.

It gets more unfair if you dont plan a good carreer. So try to go to college or trade school.

 

[47MartialMan]

Are we reading the same thread? I don't think I got that moral at all. I thought I mentioned this already, but... Fighting for no other reason than just because you're going to get a suspension is stupid and potentially life threatening. That's like saying you're going to prison anyways so you might as well shoot the clerk on the way out the door.

WhiteBirch

That was a good analogy. But one must realize that it will seem there are a lot of juveniles here whom make blatant remarks based upon their stimulus and environment. However, there maybe those here that have a lot of logical thinking and common sense.

 

[47MartialMan]

We are not permitted to touch a kid (even to pat them on the shoulder and say "Hey, Good job on the test" is considered assault) If a fight breaks out, we are to walk up to the fight with our hands behind our back and say 3 times "Please stop!" "Please Stop!" "Please Stop!"

If a little kid tries to hug us (you know how they grab your leg) we have to avoid contact at all costs and if we can't, we put our hand on their forehead and keep our arm straight so they can't get near us.

Teachers do not have the same rights as other adults in our society. If a kid makes a false claim, nothing will happen to him; but the teacher is sent through the ringer. Many kids have seen TV shows where students get a teacher ousted and think it's funny - but in reality, when they do this, they are messing with our future and our ability to put food on the table.

I know what you mean. The whole thing had turned "topsy turvey". Gone is the idea of teachers giving strict discipline. I had always like the idea of mild corporal punishment.

I remember teachers grabbing me to stop a fight or something I was doing wrong many times throughout the years. I remember trying to get them in trouble with my parents, by showing bruises and tears. My parents, like parents should be, said "that's what I get for misbehaving". Then a paddle will follow from them.

You are saying teachers don't have the same rights as adults? No way, adults and parents get into trouble by kids bearing falsehood the same. I had a good friend whom actually was incarcerated for at least 6 months. Maybe a teacher may be suspended, loose a job, hopefully the school board would back them up with legal support-I dont know. But a adult on the outside is in for it as well.

Social workers "egg on" the child in order to get things into the legal system. This is a way for them to justify their jobs. There was a special on TV, I can't remember which program, that had shown these kids bearing falsehood upon a parent or guardian. These parents or guardians, all were incarcerated. Later, the court reversed the decision and realesed them-after years!

What had happened is-society became sue and court crazy. Morals went away when liberalism came in. One can't blame the lawyers but the judges who find in favor of these estranged cases.

I can state, without a doubt, that a public school teacher has a rough job.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'm a teacher in a public school. In the past year I have seen two kids attack teachers, One of the two kids has now physically attacked 3 teachers at my school and has been suspended 28 days so far. But guess who the "Child Abuse Service" was called against? The teacher!!! In the past 2 years we have had SEVEN teachers investigated by C.A.S and everyone found innocent. In four of the cases, the teachers were not even in the same room as the kid!!! (they just gave them a poor test score).

We are not permitted to touch a kid (even to pat them on the shoulder and say "Hey, Good job on the test" is considered assault) If a fight breaks out, we are to walk up to the fight with our hands behind our back and say 3 times "Please stop!" "Please Stop!" "Please Stop!"

If a little kid tries to hug us (you know how they grab your leg) we have to avoid contact at all costs and if we can't, we put our hand on their forehead and keep our arm straight so they can't get near us.

Parents and students are upset because teachers will not intervene. Well, think of it: If two kids are fighting and I step in to stop them, one may say I hurt him and point to a injury caused in the fight; AND his friends will back him up. So, now I would have lost my job, I can't pay my mortage and my family (new baby) is in REAL trouble, I would have just blown 5 years of University including a Masters Degree, I would be shamed in the community, I would never be able to teach again, how would I eat?!?!?..... all because a couple of kids are fighting over who has a better pair of shoes?!?!?!

Teachers do not have the same rights as other adults in our society. If a kid makes a false claim, nothing will happen to him; but the teacher is sent through the ringer. If anyone is inerested, Pick up a book called "Guilty until proven Innocent". Two lawyers in Colorado have made a career of defending teachers from false accusations. Many kids have seen TV shows where students get a teacher ousted and think it's funny - but in reality, when they do this, they are messing with our future and our ability to put food on the table.

Those kids who assault teachers should be taught by a staff of retired marine drill instructors.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I know what you mean. The whole thing had turned "topsy turvey". Gone is the idea of teachers giving strict discipline. I had always like the idea of mild corporal punishment.

I remember teachers grabbing me to stop a fight or something I was doing wrong many times throughout the years. I remember trying to get them in trouble with my parents, by showing bruises and tears. My parents, like parents should be, said "that's what I get for misbehaving". Then a paddle will follow from them.

You are saying teachers don't have the same rights as adults? No way, adults and parents get into trouble by kids bearing falsehood the same. I had a good friend whom actually was incarcerated for at least 6 months. Maybe a teacher may be suspended, loose a job, hopefully the school board would back them up with legal support-I dont know. But a adult on the outside is in for it as well.

Social workers "egg on" the child in order to get things into the legal system. This is a way for them to justify their jobs. There was a special on TV, I can't remember which program, that had shown these kids bearing falsehood upon a parent or guardian. These parents or guardians, all were incarcerated. Later, the court reversed the decision and realesed them-after years!

What had happened is-society became sue and court crazy. Morals went away when liberalism came in. One can't blame the lawyers but the judges who find in favor of these estranged cases.

I can state, without a doubt, that a public school teacher has a rough job.

I've responded to a few calls by teenage kids trying to get their parents in trouble for discipline. I'll tell you what I told a 12 year old boy who was out of control and threatened to call the police on his mom. I told him that I, as the supervisor on duty at the PD, didn't really care if his mother beat him or not, as long as she didn't kill him. Anything short of that for discipline was fine with me, and since i'm the one he'll be calling, he's out of luck. I never got a call back to the house, but mom told me that she hasn't had to "beat" her son since then, just the threat was enough.

 

[dmdfromhamilton]

When your school has a suspensions even if you don't fight back i think you should fight back. why? i'd rather not become the school joke and the teachers won't do anything unless they see the fight and if i just take a beating i've got suspended and bean beaten boy sounds like a pretty bad day. As for parents encouraging violence you could say my dad does cause he says if someone takes a swing at you make sure they don't get a chance to take another. My mom says the oposite never fight back get a teacher. well sometimes ppl don't like to admit it but once one person decided to start a fight there not gonna stop it and violence is now your only option. Now i probably should add that i agree and ppl should avoid fights when you can but sometimes when somebody decides they need an ego boost so there gonna beat on someone theres nothing you can do.