Self Defense for Women

[WaterGal]

I don't think your numbers are accurate however even if they are there are hundreds of thousands of instances where someone defended themselves with a gun where nobody was shot. You don't need to fire the weapon to successfully defend yourself

I got the homicide numbers from the FBI. According to their records, 2014, there were 229 justifiable homicide (killing someone in self-defense) by firearm committed by private citizens. There were also some justifiable homicides by other methods (knives etc), but I don't have the data in front of me right now like I did when I wrote this comment.

It's more difficult to get an accurate estimate of how many people used a gun in self-defense without shooting the other person. Some people have tried to study that, but it seemed like it's tough to get an accurate figure because it relies on self-reported data and "have you ever defended yourself with a gun?" is sort of a broad question.

(Edited because I typed the wrong word.)

 

[WaterGal]

Weapons can be effective in some cases but the majority of attacks on women are done by someone the woman knows and wouldn't think to use their guns on. They probably wouldn't at first think to use self defence techniques either.

That's a good point. And the most common person to attack a woman is her husband/boyfriend or another family member who lives with her, any of which probably also has access to the same gun she'd be using to defend herself.

 

[ballen0351]

I got the homicide numbers from the FBI. According to their records, 2014, there were 229 justifiable homicide (killing someone in self-defense) by firearm committed by private citizens. There were also some justifiable homicides by other methods (knives etc), but I don't have the data in front of me right now like I did when I wrote this comment.

It's more difficult to get an accurate estimate of how many people used a gun in self-defense without shooting the other person. Some people have tried to study that, but it seemed like it's tough to get an accurate figure because it relies on self-reported data and "have you ever defended yourself with a gun?" is sort of a broad question.

(Edited because I typed the wrong word.)

lowest number I've seen is around 100,000 highest was millions. I'd guess it's closer to the low hundred thousand. We had two just this week I responded too so it happens.
But as you said it will depend on the victims perception did they believe they were at risk or was it defense of say property. Or did the victim do something that caused them to need to defend themselves. But even say 50,000 legit cases that's great in my book

 

[ballen0351]

These guys had more than 4-6 inches, it wasn't enough for them.

Yes if your ever attacked my a knife expert your probably going to be in trouble. Thankfully we don't go up against experts very often.
Also police are a bad example they have other goals besides self defense including detention and apprehension. If your a civilian you would be approaching the
Dude for him to stab you

 

[Paul_D]

Yes if your ever attacked my a knife expert your probably going to be in trouble. Thankfully we don't go up against experts very often.
Also police are a bad example they have other goals besides self defense including detention and apprehension. If your a civilian you would be approaching the
Dude for him to stab you

Agreed but your point was 4-6 inches is enough, yet is you look at people getting sucker punched in the street/bars/argument they do so from 6 inches away. I can't see how if two people are stood 6 inches away and having and argument (or if a criminal/mugger is talking to you during the interview stage of his crime) you can pull a weapon faster than he can sucker punch you.

 

[ballen0351]

That's a good point. And the most common person to attack a woman is her husband/boyfriend or another family member who lives with her, any of which probably also has access to the same gun she'd be using to defend herself.

the guns kinda irrelevant in that scenario since shes not going to fight back anyway. But there are many cases where woman do shoot the husband.
We had one woman fight back just tonight the wife was getting beat up. she grabbed a kitchen knife and stabbed him in the gut. Then ran out and called us. I didn't go to that call so I don't know the full story but hes at shock trauma and shes still being interviewed by detectives when I left to go home

 

[ballen0351]

Agreed but your point was 4-6 inches is enough, yet is you look at people getting sucker punched in the street/bars/argument they do so from 6 inches away. I can't see how if two people are stood 6 inches away and having and argument (or if a criminal/mugger is talking to you during the interview stage of his crime) you can pull a weapon faster than he can sucker punch you.

I said in an emergency. If your being attacked you only need enough room to get the gun clear of the holster and pointed toward the attacker. Then you just start shooting. We practice it on the range all the time it's called close quarters shooting. Its not ideal but in a life or death emergency it's all you need just a few inches to point the hurt end at the bad guy. Also I'm not shooting or drawing a gun in someone that wants a fist fight. That's not life or death.

 

[Paul_D]

I said in an emergency. If your being attacked you only need enough room to get the gun clear of the holster and pointed toward the attacker. Then you just start shooting. We practice it on the range all the time it's called close quarters shooting. Its not ideal but in a life or death emergency it's all you need just a few inches to point the hurt end at the bad guy. Also I'm not shooting or drawing a gun in someone that wants a fist fight. That's not life or death.

You did say emergency yes, my apologies!

 

[Tez3]

These guys had more than 4-6 inches, it wasn't enough for them.

 

[ballen0351]

View attachment 19686

Thats hilarious You win Threads over folks time to go home now

 

[GiYu - Todd]

Well even when they train, and learn how to use them properly they end up killing themselves, an innocent bystander, or end up getting the weapon turned on themselves.

Heck, look at American cops. They're wrongfully gunning down people left and right instead of using alternative measures. If they can't be trusted with guns with their training, then the average citizen shouldn't be either. Arming the population simply leads to a more paranoid society as a whole.

You seem to imply this is the majority of occurences with firearm owners. I contend these are all extremely rare instances, unless you can provide a source otherwise. If you believe that no trained law-abiding civilians or law enforcement are competent enough to be allowed to carry firearms, how would you recommend protecting against those criminals who would continue to keep theirs?

There was a huff a while back in the courts where it was ruled the police do not have a duty to protect you. But it was more like if you run into a burning building. Yoi cant sue if they dont run in after you.

Police have no duty to act... although most willing do so when possible. If police happen to reach a crime in progress, their legal obligation is to accurately report the details in their paperwork, not to get between the criminal and their intended victim. Although I've never known any who wouldn't help, even at great personal risk, if they thought they could protect the innocent.

even that number still isnt thousands

Most of the statistics on "children" tend to count people into their early 20s... and do not separate out gang members who typically shoot other teenaged gang members at a high rate. Chicago alone had close to 2500 shootings (410 homicides) in 2014... and it has extremely strict gun control laws. Only 16 of those fatal shootings came from police. (source: SunTimes). So, technically, thousands MAY be a correct value, but the number needs clarification since the majority are from gang-on-gang shootings.

Draw a weapon from where exactly? You think women are walking around with guns holstered at their sides? ...
But again, women tend to not carry loaded guns while jogging, out on a date, or sitting at home watching Netflix.

My wife carries, as do several of her friends. None have had occasion to utilize one, which is fortunate. I hope they never need them.

You're correct that she doesn't carry while watching Netflix. That would be uncomfortable. But there is one secured nearby.

It's more difficult to get an accurate estimate of how many people used a gun in self-defense without shooting the other person. Some people have tried to study that, but it seemed like it's tough to get an accurate figure because it relies on self-reported data and "have you ever defended yourself with a gun?" is sort of a broad question.

I can speak of at least one occurance late last year. I had two men rush up to me at an ATM late at night. One came up behind me, the other came up to my right with hands in his pockets. As per my training, I moved lateral to avoid them surrounding me, and drew into low ready (that's both hands on weapon, but pointed at the ground, for those unfamiliar). The gentlemen quickly disengaged and left. I didn't report it due to the fact that I never saw a weapon (it was implied in pocket of the man to my right), yet had technically brandished mine.

I wasn't happy to have been forced to defend myself. I didn't go out looking to "pump lead" into anyone. It wasn't even my choice to have to draw that night. I was in fear for my life and took what measures were needed to stay alive.

And to Hanzou... it wasn't taken and used against me, I didn't shoot myself, and didn't slaughter innocent bystanders. I'm also not paranoid. I went back to that same ATM last night, as I've done dozens of times since.

 

[Tez3]

Police have no duty to act... although most willing do so when possible.

Here our police officers have a duty to act, they have to perform their statutory role of protecting life and property, preserve order, prevent crime and detect offenders.

 

[Hanzou]

except millions of homes have guns loaded and at the ready so your wrong.

Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.
• 43% of homes with guns and kids have at least one unlocked firearm.
• In one experiment, one third of 8-to-12-year-old boys who found a handgun pulled the trigger.

10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down

The self defense portion is quite telling.

Really? I know plenty of woman that have guns on them. There is an entire industry dealing with woman conceal carry. Just because your not familiar with them doesn't make it true. 300,000,000 million Guns in America your pretty naive if you believe woman are not carrying guns.

That's not what I said. I said that it isn't common, and if they are doing it, its probably in their handbags, or in the glove compartments of their cars. I've never personally witnessed anyone having a holstered firearm on their person while jogging, at stores, in restaurants, on the job, or elsewhere, and I've lived in several states. Heck, in most states it's illegal to carry firearms into schools and businesses anyway.

I couldn't care less about other countries

Well there are some posters on this forum who live outside the US. Additionally what if an American woman is traveling to a country where firearms are illegal? Is she just SoL?

About 4 to 6 inches is plenty in an emergency

Better make sure you don't miss.

Unless it has no mechanical safety

But what if it does?

not at the distance were talking about

nope again your talking out your backside

So if you just happen to not have your gun nearby you don't have to get it, or reach for it? How else would you use your weapon? The Force?

Talking out your backside is the notion that your gun is in your hands at all times, and is loaded and ready to go.

How do you know? just because you are afraid of guns don't be surprised that woman are not

Nice assumption. See above.

 

[Hanzou]

You seem to imply this is the majority of occurences with firearm owners. I contend these are all extremely rare instances, unless you can provide a source otherwise. If you believe that no trained law-abiding civilians or law enforcement are competent enough to be allowed to carry firearms, how would you recommend protecting against those criminals who would continue to keep theirs?

The same way people in other countries where firearms are banned do it.

You're correct that she doesn't carry while watching Netflix. That would be uncomfortable. But there is one secured nearby.

So she carries a loaded firearm one while jogging, shopping, eating, working, etc.?

And to Hanzou... it wasn't taken and used against me, I didn't shoot myself, and didn't slaughter innocent bystanders.

This time....

 

[ballen0351]

10 Pro-Gun Myths, Shot Down

The self defense portion is quite telling.

lol that article has been debunked like 20 times in the last few years man you need to do a little bit better research.

That's not what I said. I said that it isn't common, and if they are doing it, its probably in their handbags, or in the glove compartments of their cars. I've never personally witnessed anyone having a holstered firearm on their person while jogging, at stores, in restaurants, on the job, or elsewhere, and I've lived in several states. Heck, in most states it's illegal to carry firearms into schools and businesses anyway.

well since YOU never witnessed it and you have lived in "several" state's then it must be true lol.

Well there are some posters on this forum who live outside the US. Additionally what if an American woman is traveling to a country where firearms are illegal? Is she just SoL?

I don't care about posters from Other countries. As for traveling out of the country well make smart choices and do what you need to do to survive

Better make sure you don't miss.

I wont

But what if it does?

Then learn How to use your weapon and it takes tenth of a second to flip a safety lever or button so not a big deal.

So if you just happen to not have your gun nearby you don't have to get it, or reach for it? How else would you use your weapon? The Force?

I can't think of a time I wouldn't one near by but if i didn't guess I better do something else. I never said firearms are the ONLY way to,defend yourself I said it's the most effective

Talking out your backside is the notion that your gun is in your hands at all times, and is loaded and ready to go.

not in my hand at all times But I've ALWAYS got one close by that I can get too.

Nice assumption. See above.

Lol which part since everything you posted is nonsense. Look you don't like guns great don't buy one. But to dismiss a gun as an effective self defense tool is silly. I can teach a woman, teen, man, anyone how to effectively defend themselves with a gun in just a few days. No other martial art can say that. No other martial art allows a 5 ft 100 pound woman instantly drop a 6'2 300 pound attacker after just 2 weeks of classes.

 

[Hanzou]

lol that article has been debunked like 20 times in the last few years man you need to do a little bit better research.

Would you prefer this article?

Pros And Cons Of Owning A Gun In The Home: Gun Safety and Security

It says the same thing, as does numerous other studies. In short, you're far more likely to shoot yourself or someone you know than an intruder.

well since YOU never witnessed it and you have lived in "several" state's then it must be true lol.

That the majority of women aren't walking around the country with guns at their hip in a holster? Yeah, I'm willing to bet that that's true.

I don't care about posters from Other countries.

That's unfortunate.

I won't

Everyone isn't a cop.

Then learn How to use your weapon and it takes tenth of a second to flip a safety lever or button so not a big deal. I can't think of a time I wouldn't one near by but if i didn't guess I better do something else. I never said firearms are the ONLY way to,defend yourself I said it's the most effective
not in my hand at all times But I've ALWAYS got one close by that I can get too.

Again, everyone isn't a cop.

Lol which part since everything you posted is nonsense. Look you don't like guns great don't buy one. But to dismiss a gun as an effective self defense tool is silly. I can teach a woman, teen, man, anyone how to effectively defend themselves with a gun in just a few days. No other martial art can say that. No other martial art allows a 5 ft 100 pound woman instantly drop a 6'2 300 pound attacker after just 2 weeks of classes.

The part where people simply aren't capable of carrying a firearm everywhere they go. Further, I'm not sure most people would want to in the first place, since people openly carrying firearms can have a significant psychological impact on society. That said, I never dismissed guns as an effective self defense tool, I dismissed it as something someone should rely on to defend themselves with, since so much can go wrong in their uses. Not everyone can mentally recover from killing someone, especially if they killed that person accidentally.

 

[CatNap]

There are not "thousands" of children killed every year by other kids with guns lol

That's 100% correct....thousands of children and adults are killed by terrorists with guns (and explosives) every year. The lesson here is the way you fight crime is to shoot back!

 

[Hanzou]

That's 100% correct....thousands of children and adults are killed by terrorists with guns (and explosives) every year. The lesson here is the way you fight crime is to shoot back!

Number of mass shooters stopped by bystanders with a concealed weapon: 0

 

[Steve]

I can speak of at least one occurance late last year. I had two men rush up to me at an ATM late at night. One came up behind me, the other came up to my right with hands in his pockets. As per my training, I moved lateral to avoid them surrounding me, and drew into low ready (that's both hands on weapon, but pointed at the ground, for those unfamiliar). The gentlemen quickly disengaged and left. I didn't report it due to the fact that I never saw a weapon (it was implied in pocket of the man to my right), yet had technically brandished mine.

I wasn't happy to have been forced to defend myself. I didn't go out looking to "pump lead" into anyone. It wasn't even my choice to have to draw that night. I was in fear for my life and took what measures were needed to stay alive.

And to Hanzou... it wasn't taken and used against me, I didn't shoot myself, and didn't slaughter innocent bystanders. I'm also not paranoid. I went back to that same ATM last night, as I've done dozens of times since.

I've posted my opinions on this subject over the years, and won't get into it. Suffice to say I believe I represent a moderate, middle ground on the issue, and I'm glad to see that my comparison to the automobile model is catching on (and it only took about five years! )

But from a purely "self defense" perspective, the passage above stands out. GiYu - Todd, do you think that hitting the ATM at night, alone is a good idea? That seems like avoidable, risky behavior. You mention that you've been back to that ATM, even gone back that same night and dozens of times since. Doesn't that seem like a willful disregard for self defense 101? That's right up there with, don't go to the strip club with large amounts of cash and a low tolerance for alcohol.

Do you think you would be more careful about this if you weren't armed? Do you think you would frequent this ATM late at night if you were female? Would you be more careful if the situation had unfolded for the worse?

Also, you appear to be a thoughtful, even keeled guy. I have no doubt that you, your wife and the people you know are very responsible. But I'm not sure I've seen any evidence that responsible owners, like you, are typical of all or even most owners. We have little regulation in this country, and so there is a tendency on both sides of this discussion to guesstimate. What we do know is that there are some responsible owners and some irresponsible owners. More of one than the other? Who knows for sure. Add to this that there is a third group of owners: those who are irresponsible, but just haven't had an accident or incident yet. Thing about these hidden irresponsible owners is that they often self-identify and are considered by most as being responsible, until an accident or incident occurs, and then it's like, "well, I guess we were wrong... but still... MOST are like me...."

This is a topic, like most contentious subjects, where there is a lot of cognitive bias. In the words of Donald Rumsfeld, "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

 

[ballen0351]

Number of mass shooters stopped by bystanders with a concealed weapon: 0

yeah about that lol
12 Times Mass Shootings Were Stopped by Good Guys With Guns