Self Defense for Women

[ballen0351]

. But I'm not sure I've seen any evidence that responsible owners, like you, are typical of all or even most owners. We have little regulation in this country, and so there is a tendency on both sides of this discussion to guesstimate. What we do know is that there are some responsible owners and some irresponsible owners. More of one than the other? Who knows for sure.

300,000,000 million guns and over a trillion rounds of ammo in civilian hands in this country if the majority were irresponsible we would know

 

[ballen0351]

Would you prefer this article?

Pros And Cons Of Owning A Gun In The Home: Gun Safety and Security

It says the same thing, as does numerous other studies. In short, you're far more likely to shoot yourself or someone you know than an intruder.

and yet Obama's own sponsored study shows HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of positive self defense uses of guns per year.

That the majority of women aren't walking around the country with guns at their hip in a holster? Yeah, I'm willing to bet that that's true.

No some wear them in their bra or in a corset or purse.

That's unfortunate.

They have their own laws to deal with Im focused on mine

Everyone isn't a cop.

Again, everyone isn't a cop.

even you canlearn not to miss from 6 inches and flick a safety button its not hard

The part where people simply aren't capable of carrying a firearm everywhere they go.

yet many people do just that

Further, I'm not sure most people would want to in the first place, since people openly carrying firearms can have a significant psychological impact on society.

psychological impact lol ok Like I said just because your afraid of guns doesnt mean every is

That said, I never dismissed guns as an effective self defense tool, I dismissed it as something someone should rely on to defend themselves with, since so much can go wrong in their uses.

yet hundreds of thousands of times they go right

Not everyone can mentally recover from killing someone, especially if they killed that person accidentally.

So dont drive a car either you have a far better chance you might accidentally kill someone

 

[Dirty Dog]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
MartialTalk is not the forum to debate gun ownership. If you wish to discuss how a gun may be used in a self defense situation, that is fine.
Continued debate about gun control will result in thread closure, and/or penalty points being issued.

Mark A. Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator

 

[ballen0351]

Lol

 

[oftheherd1]

...

There's the case in Cleveland where cops shot the 12 year old, and lied about what happened. Video proved otherwise. There's the case in South Carolina where the cop shot the black gentleman in the back and said that he fought over his taser. Video proved that untrue. There's the case in Baltimore where the guy was placed in the back of a cruiser and got his spine snapped. Then there's the case in Minnesota where the guy was shot while he was handcuffed. Then there's the aforementioned Chicago situation.

All of that has happened within the last year. Seems pretty rampant to me.




My complaint is that if the police can't be trusted to make split second decisions with firearms (as demonstrated in several cases around the country), and they get loads of training, how can the same be expected of ordinary people who get considerably less to zero training?

I'll let you have the last word though, since this topic isn't the purpose of this thread.

OK, in Cleveland, the enhanced video has yet to be validated or accepted in court. I watched it and am not yet convinced I saw what the person who enhanced the video told me to see.

The case in Baltimore involved a man who appeared to me to have been injured before being placed in a transport van. But he should have been seat belted in, and apparently was not. He should have been transported for medical attention and was not. The coroner testified he died from a scull fracture from impacting a bolt inside the van, not from a broken back in the back of a police cruiser. But as I mentioned, I thought when I saw the first video he had a neck or back injury before being placed in the van.

The case in South Carolina with no further information doesn't ring a bell, nor does what you mentioned from Minnesota. Makes no difference though. Your facts in the two incidents I have some familiarity with are skewed. But did you notice in those two, and in Chicago, The local police departments have or are investigating? In Baltimore, the trials have been split and the first one (of six) is ongoing. It may be a rampant ongoing problem, but considering the number of police departments, the number of police in them, and the number of incidents/arrests, your few don't constitute rampantness to me.

So, I will let this go myself. It is going nowhere. You have you views and I have mine. Let it end there.

 

[ballen0351]

Concealed Permit Holder Stops Attempted Mass Shooting in Chicago

or

this one even has video of a gun used in self defense
Girlfriend Of The Year Scares Off Armed Robbers By Opening Fire On Them During A Home Invasion

 

[RTKDCMB]

True enough for a number of reasons. women are often told not to fight back and it would be easier for them, however they are also told to fight back because without bruises etc they won't be believed, a no win situation for women basically because whatever advice they follow it could end badly.

You have to determine when to comply and when to fight back:

 

[GiYu - Todd]

The same way people in other countries where firearms are banned do it.

Except we already have millions of them around. It's hard to put the genie back in the bottle. So, how do you then disarm law-abiding citizens without them just becoming helpless victims of the criminals who wouldn't turn them in?

So she carries a loaded firearm one while jogging, shopping, eating, working, etc.?

She is handicapped, and unable to jog or run, or to fight off a criminal by hand. But she carries almost everyplace except her work (there are armed guards there). And having one gives her the power to resist a larger and/or armed attacker.

This time....[/QUOTE]

Had they completed their attack and killed me, I wouldn't be here now. I am well trained and practice regularly in tactical training classes.

If you don't personnally feel competent to handle a certain class of weapon, be it a projectile weapon or a blade or a stick, by all means please don't carry them. I do not believe everyone should carry a gun. Just as I believe there are people driving (I almost got hit by one on the way to work today) who should not be allowed to operate a car. They may have the right, but they are failing to live up to their responsibility. But taking rights from people who are responsible victimizes them even more than criminals do.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

But from a purely "self defense" perspective, the passage above stands out. GiYu - Todd, do you think that hitting the ATM at night, alone is a good idea? That seems like avoidable, risky behavior. You mention that you've been back to that ATM, even gone back that same night and dozens of times since. Doesn't that seem like a willful disregard for self defense 101? That's right up there with, don't go to the strip club with large amounts of cash and a low tolerance for alcohol.

It's in a relatively low-crime area, well lit, and I always drive a lap around the building after hours to scan for people who may be lurking. My attackers drove up from about 150 yards away and jumped out. I typically don't go there at night, but my wife ordered me to since we had to leave early the next morning and couldn't stop on the way out. I agree it wasn't 100% safe, but nothing is.

What we do know is that there are some responsible owners and some irresponsible owners. More of one than the other? Who knows for sure. Add to this that there is a third group of owners: those who are irresponsible, but just haven't had an accident or incident yet.

Same argument with police... We can all find examples of reckless cops... but statistically they are a small minority. Similiarly, there are more CCW holders than police walking the street armed, yet there are very few stories of irresponisble use. If good people carrying were such a huge risk, there should be dozens or even hundreds of new stories per day. Yet what you hear are warmed over retellings of the same few cases... mostly done to reinforce a political viewpoint by scaring people. Yes, those few cases are sad, but they are less prevalent than real crimes happening.

In my case, I get the privelege of celebrating my youngest child's 5th birthday today, because I was responsible with my weapon in a situation where my MA skills were insufficient to deal with multiple armed attackers. Even the attackers are able to be home with their families because I didn't start blazing away like I'm told most CCW holders would do. I hope the experience changed their choice of vocation... hard to say.

 

[Steve]

Thanks, Todd. On a phone so quick comments. First, I agree re reckless cops and I would encourage relying more on data than on the media for reliable info


Second, there are plenty of stats to suggest that many gun owners are irresponsible. Whether is quelifies as a lot or not is subjective. But the stats exist to show accidental deaths by firearms.

 

[ballen0351]

Second, there are plenty of stats to suggest that many gun owners are irresponsible. Whether is quelifies as a lot or not is subjective. But the stats exist to show accidental deaths by firearms.

Many gun owners are irresponsible huh? Nonsense Steve. Irresponsible gun owners are by far the minority

 

[Steve]

Many gun owners are irresponsible huh? Nonsense Steve. Irresponsible gun owners are by far the minority

LOL. Say it three times and it must be true!

 

[ballen0351]

LOL. Say it three times and it must be true!

prove it then. 50 million plus gun owners out there. So the word "many" per the dictionary means the majority of people. So according to you millions of gun owners are irresponsible. Surely with that many you have proof to back it up

 

[Steve]

prove it then. 50 million plus gun owners out there. So the word "many" per the dictionary means the majority of people. So according to you millions of gun owners are irresponsible. Surely with that many you have proof to back it up

Prove what? Where did I say any of this, ballen? You're getting very emotional. But, what would help is if you could share where this 50 million plus number comes from. I'm pretty sure that our country doesn't keep very good numbers on this. But if your source is credible, that would be a great starting point for a rational discussion.

 

[ballen0351]

Prove what?

You said the stat show MANY gun owners are irresponsible. so prove it?

Where did I say any of this, ballen?

you typed it

You're getting very emotional.

Why because I asked you to back up your silly claim?

But, what would help is if you could share where this 50 million plus number comes from. I'm pretty sure that our country doesn't keep very good numbers on this. But if your source is credible, that would be a great starting point for a rational discussion.

Actually 50 million was the smallest number I could find. Many studies say its over 100 million +. I went on the low end. Even on the low end your claiming millions of gun owners are irresponsible

 

[drop bear]

prove it then. 50 million plus gun owners out there. So the word "many" per the dictionary means the majority of people. So according to you millions of gun owners are irresponsible. Surely with that many you have proof to back it up

It would be everybody who committed a fire arms offence from a murder to an unintentional discharge. And then you would have to consider not everybody gets caught.

One of the definitions of many was a majority one wasn't and the one you went for seems to be in different context.

determiner, pronoun, & adjective

1. 1.
   a large number of.
   "many people agreed with her"
   synonyms: numerous, a great/good deal of, a lot of, a large/great number of, great quantities of, plenty of, countless,innumerable, scores of, crowds of, droves of, an army of, a horde of, a multitude of, a multiplicity of,multitudinous, numberless, multiple, untold;More
   

noun

1. 1.
   the majority of people.
   "music for the many"
   synonyms: the people, the common people, the masses, the multitude, the majority, the populace, the public, the rank and file, the crowd, the commonalty, the commonality;

Let's suggest even 1% of fifty million can be defined as many.

And to try and keep this subject on track. Let's also suggest that people are not automatically proficient and responsible with a gun and that if you were to use one in self defence it would be better t work at becoming proficient and responsible.

 

[Steve]

You said the stat show MANY gun owners are irresponsible. so prove it?

you typed it

Why because I asked you to back up your silly claim?

Actually 50 million was the smallest number I could find. Many studies say its over 100 million +. I went on the low end. Even on the low end your claiming millions of gun owners are irresponsible

First, ballen, I get your point. As I understand you, you believe that this is a matter of scope. It all hinges on whether we have enough irresponsible owners (relative to the number of owners overall) to consider this to be a problem. It's all very subjective, as most topics like this tend to be. I get where you're coming from. I can point to examples on both sides of this, where on one hand we have a very small number of issues relative to the population, but it's a VERY big deal. And on the other, where we have a lot of issues relative to the population, but it's not a big deal at all. So, al of that to say, I get why you think you've got a point, but I left it intentionally vague in order to avoid precisely the emotional track you're determined to drive this down. Can we agree that it's subjective and largely driven by which side of a discussion you find yourself agreeing with?

All of that said, if you're determined to have the numbers, I would point you to the statistics that I have already posted so many times in the past. I know they're there because I recently saw a meme online advocating that we regulate guns as we do automobiles, which you may recall I introduced as an idea here as far back as 2010. I thought, "Boy, isn't that a great idea?" and then wondered exactly how long it took for the interwebs to catch on. In that conversation and several since, I've posted any number of actual statistics in an effort to keep these discussions from being emotional messes.

Second, can you share some of those studies? Are they credible? As I said, I've not seen anything more than guess work when it comes to estimating households with firearms. We know we have a lot. If we can get a reliable number of American households, that would be a terrific place to start a discussion about whether or not we actually have a problem with irresponsible owners.

 

[ballen0351]

There have been several studies I've read. Off the top of my head (im,not at a computer for accuracy) the NRA puts the number around 80 million gun owners, another pew research I believe has it at 38%of US households have a gun 2014 census numbers say we have around 114000000 households so that's around 50million homes with most homes having more then 1 resident so more then 1 gun owner. There are other studies available all are in the same range.

As you said there is no specific numbers because it's impossible to track which is a good thing in my opinion. So even on the ultra low end of 40 to 50 million a few thousand cases of accidents are a drop in the bucket. Are there irresponsible gun owners? 100% yes. are there "many" no as I said the stats would show it's a minority

 

[ballen0351]

It would be everybody who committed a fire arms offence from a murder to an unintentional discharge. And then you would have to consider not everybody gets caught.

One of the definitions of many was a majority one wasn't and the one you went for seems to be in different context.

determiner, pronoun, & adjective

1. 1.
   a large number of.
   "many people agreed with her"
   synonyms: numerous, a great/good deal of, a lot of, a large/great number of, great quantities of, plenty of, countless,innumerable, scores of, crowds of, droves of, an army of, a horde of, a multitude of, a multiplicity of,multitudinous, numberless, multiple, untold;More

noun

1. 1.
   the majority of people.
   "music for the many"
   synonyms: the people, the common people, the masses, the multitude, the majority, the populace, the public, the rank and file, the crowd, the commonalty, the commonality;

Let's suggest even 1% of fifty million can be defined as many.

And to try and keep this subject on track. Let's also suggest that people are not automatically proficient and responsible with a gun and that if you were to use one in self defence it would be better t work at becoming proficient and responsible.

someone committing a firearms offense on purpose isn't irresponsible they are a criminal. They do it on purpose.

 

[Steve]

There have been several studies I've read. Off the top of my head (im,not at a computer for accuracy) the NRA puts the number around 80 million gun owners, another pew research I believe has it at 38%of US households have a gun 2014 census numbers say we have around 114000000 households so that's around 50million homes with most homes having more then 1 resident so more then 1 gun owner. There are other studies available all are in the same range.

As you said there is no specific numbers because it's impossible to track which is a good thing in my opinion. So even on the ultra low end of 40 to 50 million a few thousand cases of accidents are a drop in the bucket. Are there irresponsible gun owners? 100% yes. are there "many" no as I said the stats would show it's a minority

Makes it hard to have a concrete discussion on the topic.

someone committing a firearms offense on purpose isn't irresponsible they are a criminal. They do it on purpose.

Well, wait a minute here. I'd agree with you that someone who steals a gun and commits crimes would maybe skew things a little. But where someone purchases a gun legally and uses it in a criminal act, that is a clear subset under "irresponsible gun owner."