Self Defense against an MMA trained aggressor

[Rich Parsons]

In the city that I am moving, MMA is very very popular. There are MMA gyms everywhere. This very much increases the chance of having to defend oneself against someone trained in MMA. How would you prepare yourself to defend yourself in this situation? What kind of strategies would you use to defend yourself?

When I was in high school and before any formal training, if I got into an altercation, I would not wrestle the wrestler. I would not box the boxer. I would not kick box the kicker. I would do my thing what ever it was but I would not "play" by their rules.

Now, I would do what I would do no matter who they were. I would use weapons of opportunity. I would use terrain, and environment to my advantage. I would also continue with my attempts to avoid the situation. If physical action is required above and beyond the check or pass and move away, I fall back to my old ways, with the skill sets I have today. I end it as fast as I can. I convince the other person it was the wrong thing to do to proceed with their attempt of violence upon me.

 

[cfr]

I think the "you'll fight how you train, so MMA'ers will follow their rules" thing has an inherant flaw in it. Every single time I bring this flaw up, I get no direct response. There are always those who post something like "oh, here we go again", and the like, but no real response to my question:

If we fight how we train, and MMA'ers will follow their rules, doesnt that mean TMA'ers will:

1. Go into a horse stance.
2. Chamber their hand back to the hip.
3. Not actually poke in the eyes, (or strike the throat/ groin/ etc.) but stop inches before.
4. etc.

These are real questions as it seems fairly logical that TMA'ers would be prone to the whole "fight how you train" thing like MMA'ers. I'd love to get a real response to these questions, so please don't be shy.

 

[MJS]

I think the "you'll fight how you train, so MMA'ers will follow their rules" thing has an inherant flaw in it. Every single time I bring this flaw up, I get no direct response. There are always those who post something like "oh, here we go again", and the like, but no real response to my question:

If we fight how we train, and MMA'ers will follow their rules, doesnt that mean TMA'ers will:

1. Go into a horse stance.
2. Chamber their hand back to the hip.
3. Not actually poke in the eyes, (or strike the throat/ groin/ etc.) but stop inches before.
4. etc.

These are real questions as it seems fairly logical that TMA'ers would be prone to the whole "fight how you train" thing like MMA'ers. I'd love to get a real response to these questions, so please don't be shy.

Well, in an effort to break the no response pattern, I'll take a shot.

IMO, if the MMAist just trains for the ring and if the TMAist just trains like you mention above, then yes, the results should be pretty predictable. Do MMA people train SD, weapons, etc.? I'm sure some may, but the majority of schools that I've seen in my area do not. Now, I train in Kenpo. Do I do strikes from a horse stance, rechambering as you mention above? Yes, but I also spar, work boxing drills, and take advantage of protective gear to allow me to train those eye shots, groin hits, etc.

I'll also go back to my analogy in my other post. If you train weapon disarms, and every time you take the weapon away, you turn around and hand it back to them, that response is going to be so ingrained, there is a very good chance that you will actually do that in the heat of the moment. By dropping the weapon, throwing it in another direction, I'm conditioning a response.

Mike

 

[cfr]

A sincere thanks for the response! What you are referring too are real MMA fighters. My training is really closer to MMA than anything else, but I am by no means a real fighter, nor will I ever be. That being said, I also train in weapons, etc., as I see the flaws in MMA for SD, as there are in any art. I'd venture a guess that there are lots of guys that enjoy the traning, but will never be real fighters, and therefore add in other stuff, just like me.

 

[Nolerama]

Well, in an effort to break the no response pattern, I'll take a shot.

IMO, if the MMAist just trains for the ring and if the TMAist just trains like you mention above, then yes, the results should be pretty predictable. Do MMA people train SD, weapons, etc.? I'm sure some may, but the majority of schools that I've seen in my area do not. Now, I train in Kenpo. Do I do strikes from a horse stance, rechambering as you mention above? Yes, but I also spar, work boxing drills, and take advantage of protective gear to allow me to train those eye shots, groin hits, etc.

I'll also go back to my analogy in my other post. If you train weapon disarms, and every time you take the weapon away, you turn around and hand it back to them, that response is going to be so ingrained, there is a very good chance that you will actually do that in the heat of the moment. By dropping the weapon, throwing it in another direction, I'm conditioning a response.

Mike

I respect that, but that's like saying most of the TMA's in my neck of the woods don't ever think outside of their own style. And that's not right.

I'll pick up a weapon... and I'll know how to use it to defend myself, because that's what all MA's are supposed to do: train you for self defense.

Regardless, it doesn't matter. Talking about the validity of MMA in SD or sport is ridiculous.

A large majority of the MMA community trained in some form of TMA prior to working out in an MMA gym. Many of them think of themselves as a [insert TMA here] with a good knowledge of other ranges/styles, maybe even superior. That's great because they think outside of convention and are well-rounded fighters. I think we should take MMA how it SHOULD be:

Train to fight well, so you win.

That's pretty simple, and flows in to personal philosophy and channeled into other parts of life. Most MAs strive for the best possible way to fight, right?

If you train to adapt to/in fighting, then you'll definitely fight like that. But I'm not giving some adversary his knife/stick/gun/whiffle ball bat back to him just because I give my training partner his wep back. That's just plain ridiculous. That's like saying I'm going to pat the guy I just knocked out (in an SD situation) on the back because I do that after every sparring session.

Bleh... sorry. I know you were posting a hypothesis, but I had to offer my difference in opinion.

 

[MJS]

I respect that, but that's like saying most of the TMA's in my neck of the woods don't ever think outside of their own style. And that's not right.

Hmm..if you re-read my post, you'll see that I said some MMA people may train SD, some may not. So, although I didn't say this, the same can be said about TMAist. Some may just train in a static horse stance and some may not.

I'll pick up a weapon... and I'll know how to use it to defend myself, because that's what all MA's are supposed to do: train you for self defense.

Well, true, it doesnt take much thought to use a knife. However, some people who devote more in-depth study will use it better than those who don't.

Regardless, it doesn't matter. Talking about the validity of MMA in SD or sport is ridiculous.

I'm just another member posting in this thread, attempting to give the OP some answers to his questions.

A large majority of the MMA community trained in some form of TMA prior to working out in an MMA gym. Many of them think of themselves as a [insert TMA here] with a good knowledge of other ranges/styles, maybe even superior. That's great because they think outside of convention and are well-rounded fighters. I think we should take MMA how it SHOULD be:

Train to fight well, so you win.

That's pretty simple, and flows in to personal philosophy and channeled into other parts of life. Most MAs strive for the best possible way to fight, right?

Ok.

If you train to adapt to/in fighting, then you'll definitely fight like that. But I'm not giving some adversary his knife/stick/gun/whiffle ball bat back to him just because I give my training partner his wep back. That's just plain ridiculous. That's like saying I'm going to pat the guy I just knocked out (in an SD situation) on the back because I do that after every sparring session.

Bleh... sorry. I know you were posting a hypothesis, but I had to offer my difference in opinion.

And your opinion is certainly welcome. However, take a look at this.
http://jimwagnertraining.com/article1atoz.html

I don't think its as ridiculous as you make it sound.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think the "you'll fight how you train, so MMA'ers will follow their rules" thing has an inherant flaw in it. Every single time I bring this flaw up, I get no direct response. There are always those who post something like "oh, here we go again", and the like, but no real response to my question:

If we fight how we train, and MMA'ers will follow their rules, doesnt that mean TMA'ers will:

1. Go into a horse stance.
2. Chamber their hand back to the hip.
3. Not actually poke in the eyes, (or strike the throat/ groin/ etc.) but stop inches before.
4. etc.

These are real questions as it seems fairly logical that TMA'ers would be prone to the whole "fight how you train" thing like MMA'ers. I'd love to get a real response to these questions, so please don't be shy.

Which is why I have people poke me in the eyes. Which is why I touch their eyes as well. Hence my comment about ending it as soon as possible.

 

[Nolerama]

Hmm..if you re-read my post, you'll see that I said some MMA people may train SD, some may not. So, although I didn't say this, the same can be said about TMAist. Some may just train in a static horse stance and some may not.



Well, true, it doesnt take much thought to use a knife. However, some people who devote more in-depth study will use it better than those who don't.



I'm just another member posting in this thread, attempting to give the OP some answers to his questions.



Ok.



And your opinion is certainly welcome. However, take a look at this.
http://jimwagnertraining.com/article1atoz.html

I don't think its as ridiculous as you make it sound.

That's unfortunate for the LEOs, and I get where you're coming from. Thanks for posting that.

I think we should all be aware of real-life possibilities when we train. Bad habits can get us in trouble.

 

[AJPerry]

Hi All

I just wanted to voice my experiences. I trained in a few different styles through the years and they all had different rules for training. As I started learning a new/different I would notice the restrictions I had placed on myself. The rules were there for the safety of training but they taught bad habits for real life situations.

If you train where you don't hit each other hard in the head, you soon drop your hands to protect your body which leaves the head wide open.

If you don't allow groin shots then you don't cover it with a correct stance, low body, bent knees.

If you train only wrestling or BJJ you can forget to strike while on the ground.

There is a huge difference between sport fights and street fights and it's up to each person to decide what they want to learn.

But if you are an Instructor I feel it is Your Responsability to advise your students of what you teach. Don't tell them you are teaching them self defense if they never get hit in the head, kicked in the groin or thrown off their feet and punched while on the gound.

The group I work with trains hard and nothing is outside the rules. Sure it hurts but it's still fun training that way with friends. It scares me to think that I thought I could protect myself but some of my old Instructors lived in a world full of BS rules that could have gotte me killed on the street.

My point is train as realistically as you can for what you want to achieve. If you fight on the street and you want to resort to biting, ripping, eye, throat and groin shots then be prepared to finish them off because once you start that in a fight it will come back at you.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I think the "you'll fight how you train, so MMA'ers will follow their rules" thing has an inherant flaw in it. Every single time I bring this flaw up, I get no direct response. There are always those who post something like "oh, here we go again", and the like, but no real response to my question:

If we fight how we train, and MMA'ers will follow their rules, doesnt that mean TMA'ers will:

1. Go into a horse stance.
2. Chamber their hand back to the hip.
3. Not actually poke in the eyes, (or strike the throat/ groin/ etc.) but stop inches before.
4. etc.

These are real questions as it seems fairly logical that TMA'ers would be prone to the whole "fight how you train" thing like MMA'ers. I'd love to get a real response to these questions, so please don't be shy.

And yet TMA's who started in the UFC years ago did exactly that.....there's your answer!

Oh, and if you didn't fight like you trained, what would be the point of training....answer THAT!

 

[sgtmac_46]

A sincere thanks for the response! What you are referring too are real MMA fighters. My training is really closer to MMA than anything else, but I am by no means a real fighter, nor will I ever be. That being said, I also train in weapons, etc., as I see the flaws in MMA for SD, as there are in any art. I'd venture a guess that there are lots of guys that enjoy the traning, but will never be real fighters, and therefore add in other stuff, just like me.

I refer you to Dan Severn's first fight with the Muay Thai guy.....he body slammed the guy several times, but never through a single punch or went for a submission.....he fought like he had trained for several years. I talked to Dan Severn about that personally, and he said he had about a week to train for that fight, and after that he started training to punch.

You WILL fall back on your training, i've been a law enforcement trainer for too many years not to know THAT is reality! It is exceedingly rare to innovate in the middle of a conflict....what happens vastly MORE often is that when the pressure is on we become 'Monkey Brained' and keep repetatively trying our 'go-to move' over and over again. A guy doesn't suddenly do something he's never trained before in the middle of a fight....the mid-brain doesn't work that way.

 

[KenpoTex]

You WILL fall back on your training, i've been a law enforcement trainer for too many years not to know THAT is reality! It is exceedingly rare to innovate in the middle of a conflict....what happens vastly MORE often is that when the pressure is on we become 'Monkey Brained' and keep repetatively trying our 'go-to move' over and over again. A guy doesn't suddenly do something he's never trained before in the middle of a fight....the mid-brain doesn't work that way.

"You will NOT rise to the occasion, you will default to the level of training you have mastered."

 

[Sukerkin]

It's hard to argue with the last three posts, I have to say. Experience and common sense simply expressed, gentlemen :rei:.

My input in debates like this one has ever been that you train for a purpose - to learn how to execute the techniques of your art. The key is always that in training you try not to injure your partner (well not severly anyway ) which means certain self-imposed physical restraints.

If you don't combine the rote embedding of the physical techniques with proper visualisation and a sense of putting your fist. foot or sword where you choose, then it can indeed be a problem translating that training into actuality should you ever need to.

The way around it is to ensure that you are always visualising what the outcome should be when you stop a technique 'short' whilst simultaneously inculcating the ability to place the 'weapon' where you want it to be. That's one of the great strengths of kata - you dont have to pull or weaken a technique and can 'grind it' into reflex with strength and range of motion.

In many of our kata in MJER, we are dealing with multiple opponents and the kata delineates where these opponents are and the order in which they are dealt with. However, the emphasis is always on visualisation - seeing in your minds eye the environment and the actions taking place {kids call it playing :lol:}.

It is quite easy to see with a bit of experience when someone is not visualising and is just following the kata by the numbers because their body pre-prepares for the next 'count' and their eyes are not 'tracking' but almost looking 'within'.

Avoid that trap and if the need ever becomes urgent to use what you have trained then what you have trained should not produce unwanted shortfalls in speed, power and range.

 

[cfr]

Just for the record, I have not once said "you won't really fight how you train" or anything like it. A few of you seem to be suggesting that I diasagree with the "fight how you train" concept, that which I don't.

However, there seems to be a mindset that only MMA'ers will fall into this problem, and TMA'ers won't. Why is that?

On paper, an MMA'er would play by sport rules, and a TMA'er would chamber his punch to his hip, stop his strike an inch before the target, etc.. But the world is not on paper. Anyone who has the ability to think outside the box a bit during his training can change it up a bit to overcome these issues, despite what he's traning in.

Also, someone said "I touch the eyes" which is probably great training, but how many of us do this (either MMA or TMA)? Also, how many of us bite, scratch, strike to vitals, etc., during training? Probably not too many of us (again, regardless of which camp your in). Now before anyone spouts their supreme wisdom with something like "you couldn't do those things in training or you'd lose training partners", let me assure you I am already aware of that. :wink2:

 

[FearlessFreep]

However, there seems to be a mindset that only MMA'ers will fall into this problem, and TMA'ers won't. Why is that?

It's not. That's a common criticism of TMA; in particular, forms and some sparring ('point' with light/no contact or WTF TKD with no head shots). It's a valid criticism, but a very common one.

 

[cfr]

This thread originated with "how to apply SD to an MMA'er", and my point all along has been to not assume an MMA'er will play by the rules on the street (seriously, go back and look and my first few replies). This was then met with "they will fight how they train", which got me on this tangent of "so will TMA'ers".

 

[Andy Moynihan]

So just go through your school/gym based training in your "off hours" and go through how you'd "spice up" what youve learned. It's all about how bloody minded you're willing to be when the time comes.

There is many a black belt who is dead today because he had the technical proficiency to earn the blackness in his belt, but who, when the time came on the street, didn't have the necessary blackness in his HEART when the time came on the street.

 

[cfr]

So just go through your school/gym based training in your "off hours" and go through how you'd "spice up" what youve learned. It's all about how bloody minded you're willing to be when the time comes.

I guess that would be one way you could try it. Personally, I ask people "how could this be applied/ not applied in the street?". Seems to work out as most MMA'ers have backrounds in TMA's as well (as has been mentioned previously).

 

[MJS]

Just for the record, I have not once said "you won't really fight how you train" or anything like it. A few of you seem to be suggesting that I diasagree with the "fight how you train" concept, that which I don't.

However, there seems to be a mindset that only MMA'ers will fall into this problem, and TMA'ers won't. Why is that?

On paper, an MMA'er would play by sport rules, and a TMA'er would chamber his punch to his hip, stop his strike an inch before the target, etc.. But the world is not on paper. Anyone who has the ability to think outside the box a bit during his training can change it up a bit to overcome these issues, despite what he's traning in.

I think I gave a breakdown of this in another post. Actually, yes, right here.

Also, someone said "I touch the eyes" which is probably great training, but how many of us do this (either MMA or TMA)? Also, how many of us bite, scratch, strike to vitals, etc., during training? Probably not too many of us (again, regardless of which camp your in). Now before anyone spouts their supreme wisdom with something like "you couldn't do those things in training or you'd lose training partners", let me assure you I am already aware of that. :wink2:

How many of us do this? Hmm...depends on your training goals. I do it, because my goals are SD. Of course, everything has limits. Even in BJJ, you don't always choke your partner out or break his arm, so like in the TMAs there are limits.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Also, someone said "I touch the eyes" which is probably great training, but how many of us do this (either MMA or TMA)? Also, how many of us bite, scratch, strike to vitals, etc., during training? Probably not too many of us (again, regardless of which camp your in). Now before anyone spouts their supreme wisdom with something like "you couldn't do those things in training or you'd lose training partners", let me assure you I am already aware of that. :wink2:

Could this be the reason our club is so small?