Secret mystical healing powers, are they real?

Discussion in 'Traditional Healing Arts' started by kehcorpz, May 13, 2016.

  1. kehcorpz

    kehcorpz Blue Belt

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    For example the stuff from Karate Kid where Mr.Myagi rubs his hands and then cures Daniel's injuries.
    Is this stuff real? If yes, can it be scientifically explained?

    But from what I know science can also not explain chi and how somebody can bend a spear with his throat.
     
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  2. MAfreak

    MAfreak Purple Belt

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    i'd like to list some things to think about:
    - traditional chinese medicine sells powder and such of endangered animals as aphrodisiacs
    - traditional chinese medicine sells carcinogenic plants as healing herbs
    - acupuncture in studies was exactly as effective as placebo-therapy was
    and overcoming pain isn't always good since pain warns us of injuries and the like.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
  3. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Did he cure Daniel's injuries? Granted this was a movie, but consider the outcome. Daniel was still in pain, still hobbling on one leg. He overcame this to fight and win. He was not cured. People who are cured have no injury.

    I heard about a mystical bark of a tree once as a cure for headaches. You were supposed to find this particular kind of tree, and strip off some bark, and boil it, and drink the liquid. Or chew it. Or something like that.

    From a tree, a 'miracle' called aspirin - CNN.com

    Nowadays, you can get it in a pill. They call it 'aspirin'.

    The point I am trying to make is that folk medicine of all kinds, from ointments and herbs to massage and pressure points and acupuncture, all have a history of working, to one extent or another. Many are exploited today and are little more than snake oil (fake), but it cannot be said that it is all fake or that none of it works.

    If it works, it works. Science can prove that with objective double-blind studies - or disprove it.

    Even if proven, that doesn't necessarily mean that science can immediately demonstrate how it works.

    But that doesn't mean it doesn't work, or that science can't eventually explain it.

    It just means that science cannot explain it right now.

    You have to engage your brain. Some things work whether or not we believe in them. Some things work only if we believe in them. Some things can be objectively proven, and others, not so much. None of those proves anything, but a rational mind and some intelligent research should not steer you too wrong, plus developing your own sense of what is and is not real based on your own observations.

    I hope that doesn't sound too mystical. What I am trying to say is that there is no yes or no answer to your question. Too many unknowns, too many gray areas.

    For example - I have seen certain individuals claim to be able to knock others out without touching them, by use of 'chi power' or something along those lines.

    Do I believe it? No, I do not. I think it's fake.

    Do THEY believe in it? I think many of them do, instructors as well as students. They are not all liars, but I believe some are misled.

    However, it would be wrong of me to tell them they are being misled. That is for them to figure out - or not - as they can.

    So, do no-touch knockouts work? Depends on who you ask. And unless I want to proclaim that everyone who claims to have experienced it a liar, the answer is both yes and no.

    Hope that helps.

    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
    - Hamlet (1.5.167-8), Hamlet to Horatio
     
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  4. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    No.

    Movies have very little relation to reality.

    Until you can define what you mean by "chi" and what specific physical effects you are attributing to it, there's nothing to explain.

    That's a magic trick. Dull blade, super-bendy shaft, the flat of the tip is wedged against the top of the performer's breastbone and his hand holds it in place while he applies pressure to start bending the so-called "spear". Once the bend has started he can release his hands because the angle of pressure is with the flat of the blade going into the breastbone rather than the point going into the throat.

    Don't try it at home, though. You can probably hurt yourself if you don't know what you're doing.
     
  5. kehcorpz

    kehcorpz Blue Belt

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    So you guys dont believe that there are chinese monks who have some kind of super powers?
    one time i watched a documentary about somebody who learned kung fu and he also trained in china and one
    day he and a few others visited a monastery and there was a monk who sparred a bit with them and they were
    all shocked at how strong he was and he wasnt totally muscular it was something else. when i saw this i thought
    maybe this chi stuff is real and he gathered an insane amount of chi.
     
  6. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Human potential usually exceeds human performance.

    When we see someone performing at or near their potential, we want to believe it is magic rather than hard work that caused it.

    The magic is more training.
     
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  7. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Real? Yes, it's magic. And magic is in the eye of the beholder.
     
  8. MAfreak

    MAfreak Purple Belt

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    think about how shaolin monks are on tour in theaters etc., so how its just a business for them, not their path of being poor and modest. its the same as in the kung fu movies, all fake for money. nice to watch, but not for real life.
    maybe google search on "fake martial arts" will prevent you from getting charmed by dim mak, no touch ko and other stuff during your martial arts research.
     
  9. Kenposcholar

    Kenposcholar Orange Belt

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    Kecorpz,

    - I do not believe that there is any mystical healing abilities. Growing up, I always wanted to believe that Qigong had some kind of magical qi solution as a cure-all medicine. Now, I believe in science and the proven medicinal cures to problems. I do love Bill's story about the aspirin since it is always possible to stumble upon a better, more reliable cure to an ailment. We can never be sure that our solutions can't be improved on farther by accidental findings.

    - The best scientific explanation for most mystical cures is in the form of a placebo. The human body is tremendously capable of curing itself if we are set in the right mindset. Believing 100% that something will fix you is going to greatly increase the chances of seeing progress. This is different than a line of code for a program where there is only one possible solution to the code and goes to show how complex our bodies are.

    - Between how bendy the spears are, the blunt tip, the slow increase of surface area on the neck as the monk leans forward, the buckling of the spear, and other principles, there are clear scientific reasons why this is possible. There are even reasons on how they can bend rebar, walk on coals, and do many other things. Anyone can do these without going to a shaolin school to build up their qi. Here is a quick source with links: How do Shaolin monks break spears with their neck?

    I, like anyone on here, want very badly for these things to be real. It's the stuff that we grew up admiring and aspiring to accomplish when we get older. The concept of qi is mystical in itself and has always intrigued many of us that have been life time martial artists. The disappointing, realistic fact is that there is no qi. There is no mystical cures. The reassuring fact is that there is always science to help us out.

    One of my favorite quotes is: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

    With Respect,
    Kenposcholar
     
  10. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

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    I studied Chinese medicine at university and I don't spend time justifying the Qi. Needles and herbs just work. I did experiments. This stuff is real, but limited as everything on earth. And a lot of stuff is just fake.
     
  11. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If I were to go to someone who practices what you studied, how would I know what is real, in what ways it is limited, and what is fake? Are there any go-to tips to notice that the doctor is not being entirely honest about how effective his stuff is?
     
  12. kehcorpz

    kehcorpz Blue Belt

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    I lent a book about TCM once and wanted to read a bit in it but it was not understandable.
    For example it said stuff like if you have problems with your eyes then the energy flow between heart and kidney is disturbed and so on.
    This is stuff you cannot verify at all. It's simply believe it or reject it. That's what I find discouraging.
    Maybe they are really right. I have visual disorders and ordinary doctors cant help with that they simply say this is harmless.
    If I knew a trustworthy TCMist I'd check him out but I'd be scared of being ripped off. My insurance also doesn't cover TCM or homeopathy.

    If the speer stuff can easily be explained then I wonder why did they scientist in the documentary about martial arts not say this? They had
    somebody who does kung fu do this in their lab and connected him to cables and measured the pressure of the speer and so on.
    In the end they basically said they dont know how this is possible.
     
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  13. MAfreak

    MAfreak Purple Belt

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    there are really bodyparts "combined" through nerval pathways to each other (for example see head's zones).
    but others in acupuncture seems just to be placebo.
     
  14. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I have always considered ancient healing arts to be a low tech hack, into things we are only now discovering today. While we cling to hard science, these guys were masters of the empirical. However, just like the martial arts "Masters" of today, there was probably always about 80%, of the healers, just winging it.
     
  15. kehcorpz

    kehcorpz Blue Belt

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    I wonder how did they even come up with this stuff without being able to prove any of it, like disturbed energy flow between different parts of the body?
    As far as I remember that have 4 major areas in the body which everything revolves around and if the flow is disturbed then you get different problems.

    But what was strange is that in this book they described precisely a problem with the eyes, which I have. I have been to many different doctors and described
    it to them and most of them didn't even know it or understand it! One eye specialist said what I see is white blood cells moving in the eyes. Maybe this is it
    but this does not explain why I have it. I didn't have it up until a few years ago. In the entire vision field I see small transparent objects moving around.
    It looks like this. It's really dragging me down. First I saw them only when it was very bright now I see them even when it's not bright. I see them on the computer
    screen for example.
    File:Blue field entoptic phenomenon animation.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In the book it was described exactly how it is. This was impressive.
    But if their explanation of the causes is correct is unknown.
     
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    The same way every religion in the world manages to keep convincing people that they have all the answers with zero objective evidence. It's purely a matter of faith.
     
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  17. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    The OP - I am convinced this is why they made Grey Goose.
     
  18. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Grandmaster

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    No, it's nonsense. And yes, science has no problem explaining the spear trick. It's quite simply something that looks dangerous and scary, but really isn't. Just like fire walking, walking on glass, beds of nails, etc.
     
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  19. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Actually science has proved acupuncture works and it works in a non mystical way. It's scientific in fact. http://apps.who.int/medicinedocs/pdf/s4926e/s4926e.pdf
     
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  20. MAfreak

    MAfreak Purple Belt

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    that was, what i wanted to tell with my post. well not, that it works (better than "our" medicine) but that its no real magic.123
     

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