SD/Traditional TKD and Sport Training!!!

1. I suppose I could respond to your OP by saying that you should see how long your comp team guy lasts against a guy from a hard core SD school with minimal rules and full contact, but I think that that would be a silly and childish response.

2. The whole contention of the SD oriented posters who dislike the sport is that sport taekwondo is not self defense, and in the case of the WTF rule set, really bears no resemblance to the Kukki taekwondo that it is connected to. This is almost never addressed by the folks who press the sport on the board here.

Seeing as healthy debate is what you said you are after, how do you address this?

My response

1. Some would do well others not so well. We do some SD training but it is limited. Most of our students come from tough backgrounds so they learned to fight out of need.
Fair answer. While I do not subscribe to the idea that a guy who does sport taekwondo will somehow try to make a self defense scenario into a sporting event (as some do maintain), I do think that the person who trains towards a specific goal consistently will be the best suited to achieve that goal. Thus the guys and gals who train sport TKD as their main or only program I would expect to excel and to do better than a guy or gal from a traditional school. On the other hand, if you spend all of your classes training to deal with a less constricted attack scenario, you will be better equipped to do so than the 80-100% sport trained athlete. This is assuming that both the traditional and the sport student meeting or exceeding an acceptable level of fitness, including cardio.

Of course as the saying goes, on any given Sunday....

2. I agree with you! Most of what is done in sport tkd is not applicable in SD. The cardio it develops and the ability to adjust to an attacker can be of help. I have said this many times in multiple posts. Sport TKD and SD are for the most part Apples and Oranges. I respect both.
Given that taekwondo was developed as a martial art for use protecting one's self and is actually more hands heavy in terms of technique count and does not resemble in any meaningful way WTF sport taekwondo, and given that it came first, do you think that WTF sport taekwondo should even be labeled taekwondo?

No right or wrong answer; I have no investment in the answer, though I do personally think that it should be called something else.

My reason is that Kukki taekwondo has a much, much larger curriculum set than WTF sport, most of which is inapplicable in WTF sport. Chang Hon resembles WTF sport even less and is older than Kukki TKD. I would assume that Songham TKD has the same dichotomy with ATA and WTF sport.

Thoughts?

Daniel
 
Gas on the fire.......

If you are not in shape YOU CANNOT FIGHT......PERIOD'

I'll echo Daniel's thought. Some of the toughest guys out there have no cardio endurance at all, but they can take a punch and they can end a fight in seconds. Obviously, being in great shape is preferable however, especially if you're a competitor in the sporting arena.
 
Mentioning Seagal again, compare Seagal now to Dolph Lundgren now. Seagal can likely still fight, but really, he is not anything close to what he was back in his heyday.

Lundgren, on the other hand, is still about eighty percent there.

Both men can still fight, but Lundgren can certainly fight for a sustained period that is likely on par with most younger guys. Seagal I would gather would be spent fairly quickly against an opponent that he couldn't dispatch in less than a minute.

Daniel
 
Mentioning Seagal again, compare Seagal now to Dolph Lundgren now. Seagal can likely still fight, but really, he is not anything close to what he was back in his heyday.

Lundgren, on the other hand, is still about eighty percent there.

Both men can still fight, but Lundgren can certainly fight for a sustained period that is likely on par with most younger guys. Seagal I would gather would be spent fairly quickly against an opponent that he couldn't dispatch in less than a minute.

Daniel

Good examples. Think too about the street fighters who became famous through MMA like Tank Abbott or Kimbo Slice. Both guys have questionable cardio but if they catch you at the beginning of a fight with a solid punch, you're out.

It's a bad idea to underestimate the fat guy in a violent altercation just because he's carrying around some extra weight. Hmm, come to think of it, I've seen many a bouncer with a spare tire on his waist too.
 
Good examples. Think too about the street fighters who became famous through MMA like Tank Abbott or Kimbo Slice. Both guys have questionable cardio but if they catch you at the beginning of a fight with a solid punch, you're out.

It's a bad idea to underestimate the fat guy in a violent altercation just because he's carrying around some extra weight. Hmm, come to think of it, I've seen many a bouncer with a spare tire on his waist too.
I agree to some extent. Most of the people they faught were not the best fighters nor in the best of shape either. That is why their endurance got exposed once they faced off with better competition. Both are strong men so yes againt less experienced and weaker fighters they look good. But once they got someone with even just better endurance they looked pretty bad quite soon.
 
Still talking ring and rules versus real life minute or two of exchanging blows.

There is no arguing that the better fit you are the better you can fight.
The better fit you are the better you can fight in the ring. (you must be!!)

What is out there and worth considering is that a 275lb big boy that cant make three rounds, can beat the crap out of most folks in under tow minutes in a room or an alley.

Just saying...
 
Still talking ring and rules versus real life minute or two of exchanging blows.

There is no arguing that the better fit you are the better you can fight.
The better fit you are the better you can fight in the ring. (you must be!!)

What is out there and worth considering is that a 275lb big boy that cant make three rounds, can beat the crap out of most folks in under tow minutes in a room or an alley.

Just saying...
I don't know about that. I have had my share of high school and college bar fights in my day and the big boys (really over weight) were some of the easiest fights.

Now I am sure that there are some big boys that are in pretty decent shape. I have seen them, but again they are in shape, just big but in good cardio shape.
 
Kind of a mixed bag. Most overweight people are just overweight and in general, out of shape in terms of strength and agility as well. There are those exceptions though, and unfortunately, for the most part they just look like any other out of shape person.

Daniel
 
Given that taekwondo was developed as a martial art for use protecting one's self and is actually more hands heavy in terms of technique count and does not resemble in any meaningful way WTF sport taekwondo, and given that it came first, do you think that WTF sport taekwondo should even be labeled taekwondo?

No right or wrong answer; I have no investment in the answer, though I do personally think that it should be called something else.

My reason is that Kukki taekwondo has a much, much larger curriculum set than WTF sport, most of which is inapplicable in WTF sport. Chang Hon resembles WTF sport even less and is older than Kukki TKD. I would assume that Songham TKD has the same dichotomy with ATA and WTF sport.

Thoughts?

Daniel[/QUOTE]

What it is called is of no concern to me. If they wanted to change the name I would be fine with it.

What should the name be?
 
Given that taekwondo was developed as a martial art for use protecting one's self and is actually more hands heavy in terms of technique count and does not resemble in any meaningful way WTF sport taekwondo, and given that it came first, do you think that WTF sport taekwondo should even be labeled taekwondo?

No right or wrong answer; I have no investment in the answer, though I do personally think that it should be called something else.

My reason is that Kukki taekwondo has a much, much larger curriculum set than WTF sport, most of which is inapplicable in WTF sport. Chang Hon resembles WTF sport even less and is older than Kukki TKD. I would assume that Songham TKD has the same dichotomy with ATA and WTF sport.

Thoughts?

Daniel

What it is called is of no concern to me. If they wanted to change the name I would be fine with it.

What should the name be?
Tae Do?
 
What it is called is of no concern to me. If they wanted to change the name I would be fine with it.

What should the name be?

Instead of Taekwondo, how about whatever the Korean term for 'foot fist sport' instead? It would be taekwon-something.

You many not care what it is called, and personally, neither do I. But it is fairly obvious that the two are pretty well divorced from one another. Traditional guys get tired of telling people "that's not what we do" when they hear the jabs at the sport.

And I am sure that the sport guys get tired of hearing, "that won't work on the street" when it is obvious that WTF sport is sport, not some kind of teh deadly SD system.

Nobody confuses Kendo with Kenjutsu. Nobody applies the same value judgments to them because they are different entities.

Unfortunately, not only does the sport and art of taekwondo have the same name, they pretty much have the same organization. Yes, the KKW and WTF are separate orgs, but WTF only recognizes KKW rank and the two organizations are pretty well joined at the hip. Try explaining to someone outside of TKD where one ends and the other begins.

Two different systems with two different names under one org would not be a problem. Nobody confuses Jo-do with kendo, even though both are a part of the FIK. Likewise, Taekwon-sport and Taekwondo could certainly coexist under one organization.

That would eliminate the "that's not real taekwondo and your twelve year old shouldn't have a black belt" comments.

Daniel
 
The Funny/Ironic thing about this is that for the last 3 days we have done nothing but self defense. The Team loves it and I suspect that Master Blackburn is trying to break things up a bit because we have been training pretty hard for quite a while. I will ask him tonight. I am curious about his thought process.
 
Kick-sport, or the equivalent in Korean, would be an appropriate name.

There is very little "-Do" or punching, for that matter, remaining in sport tkd.

Yea, I think kick-sport is the right name for it.

As for the original post, anyone with any education at all in sports education/science will tell you about the specificity principle, that training is HIGHLY specific.

So this anecdote really doesn't even prove you have better cardio fitness — only that you are performing well in the specific activity you train in, as you should

(Not saying these guys don't have great cardio, because without a doubt they DO. I've played around with the game and have first-hand experience with the demand it places on your cardiovascular system.)

But they were on their home turf.

Have those same competitors play with some equivalent-level competitors from another cardio game they aren't familiar with — racquetball, cross country skiing, judo, even basketball — and they aren't going to do so well.

Training is highly specific.

Let me extend a personal invitation to any of your competition team (heck, to anybody here on MT ;)) to visit us for a free workout in our hapkido class should you ever be Southeast Missouri on a Tuesday or Thursday night.

It would be an eye-opening experience.

I won't, however, imply that we are any better than anyone else. Every single one of us first walked onto that mat not being able to do 1/10 of the workout and realize that all it takes to perform like we do is showing up on a regular basis for a couple of years.

The only special thing about us is we keep showing up: week after week, year after year. And that takes a special kind of strength not of body but of mind, of spirit.
 
That's a great point, Scott. A student once remarked to me how tiring it was just to be thrown over and over again as uke and then having to get up time and time again. You'd think it was easy just to have someone else fling you around....
 
Kick-sport, or the equivalent in Korean, would be an appropriate name.

There is very little "-Do" or punching, for that matter, remaining in sport tkd.

Yea, I think kick-sport is the right name for it.

As for the original post, anyone with any education at all in sports education/science will tell you about the specificity principle, that training is HIGHLY specific.

So this anecdote really doesn't even prove you have better cardio fitness — only that you are performing well in the specific activity you train in, as you should

(Not saying these guys don't have great cardio, because without a doubt they DO. I've played around with the game and have first-hand experience with the demand it places on your cardiovascular system.)

But they were on their home turf.

Have those same competitors play with some equivalent-level competitors from another cardio game they aren't familiar with — racquetball, cross country skiing, judo, even basketball — and they aren't going to do so well.

Training is highly specific.

Let me extend a personal invitation to any of your competition team (heck, to anybody here on MT ;)) to visit us for a free workout in our hapkido class should you ever be Southeast Missouri on a Tuesday or Thursday night.

It would be an eye-opening experience.

I won't, however, imply that we are any better than anyone else. Every single one of us first walked onto that mat not being able to do 1/10 of the workout and realize that all it takes to perform like we do is showing up on a regular basis for a couple of years.

The only special thing about us is we keep showing up: week after week, year after year. And that takes a special kind of strength not of body but of mind, of spirit.

I agree with all of what you said. That is why I have a problem with folks who think that they can do sport tkd because it looks easy to them. That is what I was trying to show. It is not easy!!! I don't think that Sport TKD is superior. The people who walked into our school thought that they were superior and found out that it is not as easy as it seems.

The next time that I go home we will try to stop by. I am from SE Kansas and an Alumni of Pitt State. That is why is use the Screen name Gorilla. What city are you in.
 
I agree with all of what you said. That is why I have a problem with folks who think that they can do sport tkd because it looks easy to them. That is what I was trying to show. It is not easy!!! I don't think that Sport TKD is superior. The people who walked into our school thought that they were superior and found out that it is not as easy as it seems.

To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen anyone on MT say sport TKD was easy. Some (really only 1 person that I can think of) may have derided it as ineffectual and useless outside of tournaments, but I think everyone here understands how demanding the sport is physically.
 
To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen anyone on MT say sport TKD was easy. Some (really only 1 person that I can think of) may have derided it as ineffectual and useless outside of tournaments, but I think everyone here understands how demanding the sport is physically.

Great! I am Glad hear that! I understand that people don't like it. I don't like Ice Dancing but I can appreciate the hard work and dedication that it takes to compete at a high level.

Can we all agree? Like the sport or not that it takes allot of hard work and skill to compete in Olympic style TKD at the Highest levels?
 
Great! I am Glad hear that! I understand that people don't like it. I don't like Ice Dancing but I can appreciate the hard work and dedication that it takes to compete at a high level.

Can we all agree? Like the sport or not that it takes allot of hard work and skill to compete in Olympic style TKD at the Highest levels?

No. I think I could do it. Totally. Just give me 3 months and work out time with Phillip Rhee and James Earl Jones.... gosh, didn't anyone see Best of the Best?!?

Peace of Cake. And they call it an olympic sport.... sheeesh.

(j/k....)
 
Great! I am Glad hear that! I understand that people don't like it. I don't like Ice Dancing but I can appreciate the hard work and dedication that it takes to compete at a high level.

Can we all agree? Like the sport or not that it takes allot of hard work and skill to compete in Olympic style TKD at the Highest levels?

Since when did we all not agree? With the exception of one or two vocal detractors (who have not posted on this thread), everyone on this board has been saying that since well before you, or for that matter I, joined this site.

Threads specifically designed to take shots at either the sport or the art are just plain silly. One does not compare directly to the other, but because they share the same name, direct comparisons are made and then hotly debated. If we were talking sport TKD and aikido, these topics would never come up.

Really what it comes down to is insecure people who want their blackbelt to be 'the real deal' and feel that a guy with a blackbelt in the the other TKD is a threat to their sense of either athletic accomplishment or their status as a tough guy, depending upon which side of the aisle you happen to be on.

Daniel
 
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