Sport Vs. KKW

[terryl965]

one thing, you need to stop making distinctions between sport and non-sport. there are no such distinctions, and according to the pioneers who created taekwondo, there is only one art and one taekwondo. dividing it up into sport non sport, or whatever else destroys the unity that is the hallmark of our art. the pioneers sacrificed their own individual kwan identities as well as their kwan income in favor of a unified single taekwondo and personally I would like to see that continue for as long as possible.

I find the above statement to be kinda funny, after thinking about this I am starting another thread about it. First off I am being told I need to do something well I am over fifty and the only thing I need to do is appreciate my wife and childern, next there is no distinction between the two really go ask any high level competitor and they will surely point out a few . Pioneers sacrificed there own Kwans really because I know alot of pioneers and they make sure people know they are a certain linage of said kwan.

The last thingis this unified single TKD when and where is this anywhere in the world, not even in Korea is there a single one only TKD. Please point me in the direction of this single unified group? Here in the US I can name thousands of groups that will bash another group and talk about how bad one is compare to the other.

I know some of you have a higher rank than me and believe certain things but to try and get me to believe certain things will not happen, I have been in TKD - Karate - Martial Arts for 48 years and have seen and hear alot of things. But the one thing I consistately hear is TKD is not and will never be unified under one banner simply because to many high level instructors are money hungry people and all they only care about is how much they can get out of you. Lets just get that taken care of and maybe one day the intregrity and the respect we should have for each other can get back to some kind of acceptable level in TKD.

 

[miguksaram]

I feel part of the confusion when talking about sport TKD. First and foremost is the fact that sport rules of TKD is managed by the WTF. This would cause people to think that the sport part TKD is a seperate entity. The sport aspect of TKD is still part of TKD. It is the sparring that we do in class. The only difference is that when you go to a competition you have a set of rules. But you are still doing TKD. There is no sport vs KKW just like there is no Self Denfense vs KKW. It is all one TKD.

Even elite players can not say what they do is not KKW TKD. Their techniques are based in KKW TKD techniques. So the old argument of sport vs. KKW or sport TKD vs. trad. Now I know people will chime in with the "We don't practice for competition. We spar for real" or whatever dribble they will spew. It's not your goal of sparring which makes you TKD. It is the fact that you are sparring.

 

[terryl965]

Well people train andifferent aspect of TKD when doing sport, must sport people do not do poomsae, one steps or self defense they only work on kicking the sport way.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

one thing, you need to stop making distinctions between sport and non-sport. there are no such distinctions, and according to the pioneers who created taekwondo, there is only one art and one taekwondo. dividing it up into sport non sport, or whatever else destroys the unity that is the hallmark of our art. the pioneers sacrificed their own individual kwan identities as well as their kwan income in favor of a unified single taekwondo and personally I would like to see that continue for as long as possible.

Who made the statement? Anyone with eyes can see the distinction between sport and the actual martial art. Not to mention that I have heard that kwan unification was not entirely cooperative (that may not be true, but I have seen statements to that effect), not to mention that unity in taekwondo is sadly elusive. To believe the above requires some naivity and a certain degree of self delusion.

At the outset, the sport was probably not meant to be such a separate entity, but the fact is that it has become a very disinct and separate entity.

I know some of you have a higher rank than me and believe certain things but to try and get me to believe certain things will not happen, I have been in TKD - Karate - Martial Arts for 48 years and have seen and hear alot of things. But the one thing I consistately hear is TKD is not and will never be unified under one banner simply because to many high level instructors are money hungry people and all they only care about is how much they can get out of you. Lets just get that taken care of and maybe one day the intregrity and the respect we should have for each other can get back to some kind of acceptable level in TKD.

Well, there is also the factor of how taekwondo is perceived. It is very hard to unify when so many have different ideas of what taekwondo is supposed to be. I can't say that money and greed are the only driving factors, though you certainly have a better perspective than I.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I feel part of the confusion when talking about sport TKD. First and foremost is the fact that sport rules of TKD is managed by the WTF. This would cause people to think that the sport part TKD is a seperate entity. The sport aspect of TKD is still part of TKD. It is the sparring that we do in class. The only difference is that when you go to a competition you have a set of rules. But you are still doing TKD. There is no sport vs KKW just like there is no Self Denfense vs KKW. It is all one TKD.

Even elite players can not say what they do is not KKW TKD. Their techniques are based in KKW TKD techniques. So the old argument of sport vs. KKW or sport TKD vs. trad. Now I know people will chime in with the "We don't practice for competition. We spar for real" or whatever dribble they will spew. It's not your goal of sparring which makes you TKD. It is the fact that you are sparring.

I dunno. Let's face it, if you aren't a KKW taekwondo person, the gap between your own expression of TKD vs. Olympic rules sport TKD is pretty wide.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Even elite players can not say what they do is not KKW TKD. Their techniques are based in KKW TKD techniques.

Maybe they don't, but certainly they can. I'm not getting at the idea that one is better or worse, but WTF sport TKD has become a distinct entity, like it or not.

The fact that the techniques used are based in KKW TKD is somewhat beside the point, given that much of what is used in sport TKD is not unique to KKW TKD anyway.

Anyone who feels that sport style sparring isn't 'real' is mistaken, but it is different from training in a traditional fashion. There really is no reason that the two cannot coexist within the same organization. Iai and kendo both exist in the ZNKR and are sometimes taught in the same school, but students do not rank in both simultaneously. The two have a relation, but they are distinct.

Likewise, WTF sport taekwondo has a relation to KKW taekwondo, but the two are still technically distinct.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Well also th WTF is going to start to issue there own rank tells me the sport is being seperated from the KKW. If unity is what it wants then why seperate the WTF from the KKW?

 

[miguksaram]

Well also th WTF is going to start to issue there own rank tells me the sport is being seperated from the KKW. If unity is what it wants then why seperate the WTF from the KKW?

Well KKW has issues with that. So WTF doing that is not something the KKW is happy about. Nor should they. What right does WTF have to issue rank when all they do is manage the sport. They do not set curriculum standards at all.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well KKW has issues with that. So WTF doing that is not something the KKW is happy about. Nor should they. What right does WTF have to issue rank when all they do is manage the sport. They do not set curriculum standards at all.

Well, they have as much 'right' as anyone else. They're an org, they can issue rank. The KKW however, has the right to not recognize WTF rank.

Now, is this rank in 'sport' tkd or is it meant to be the equivalent of the KKW rank? Or maybe the WTF is going to start setting curriculum standards?

Daniel

 

[puunui]

there is no distinction between the two really go ask any high level competitor and they will surely point out a few .

Any high level competitor. Do you mean that we should defer to the opinions of practitioners in their teens and twenties to tell us what Taekwondo is all about?

Pioneers sacrificed there own Kwans really because I know alot of pioneers and they make sure people know they are a certain linage of said kwan.

Being proud of one's lineage doesn't mean that the did not sacrifice their kwan for the sake of unification. Also, which pioneers do you know? My definition of pioneer is one who actively participated in the creation of Taekwondo back during the formative years. Generally these are kwan jang or others who began their training in the 1940's or earlier.

The last thingis this unified single TKD when and where is this anywhere in the world, not even in Korea is there a single one only TKD. Please point me in the direction of this single unified group? Here in the US I can name thousands of groups that will bash another group and talk about how bad one is compare to the other.

I will also have to draw a distinction between a unified Taekwondo and different groups. Groups and art are not the same thing. We have unified Taekwondo at the Kukkiwon, which is the symbol of unification. If you practice the Kukkiwon poomsae for example, you are part of the unified Taekwondo. If you have Kukkiwon certification, then you are part of unified Taekwondo.

I know some of you have a higher rank than me and believe certain things but to try and get me to believe certain things will not happen, I have been in TKD - Karate - Martial Arts for 48 years and have seen and hear alot of things.

If I had to point to one thing that is causing turmoil in Taekwondo, it is the attitude expressed in the above statement. The "I don't care if you are my senior or teacher, don't tell me what to do" is what caused the USTU to come crashing down. It is what prevents people at USAT from uniting and making meaningful change there as well. It is the individualistic, me perspective that really is the antithesis of what Taekwondo is all about, which is coming together for the sake of the art and its practitioners. There is no woo ri anymore.

But the one thing I consistately hear is TKD is not and will never be unified under one banner simply because to many high level instructors are money hungry people and all they only care about is how much they can get out of you. Lets just get that taken care of and maybe one day the intregrity and the respect we should have for each other can get back to some kind of acceptable level in TKD.

Again, it is one of perspective. I look at Taekwondo from the pioneer's perspective because I wish to understand what they were thinking and attempting to achieve when creating Taekwondo. In taking that approach, hopefully I can understand what taekwondo is about, or at least what it was supposed to be about.

I think you tend to look at things from the perspective of those around you. Perhaps there are high level instructors out there who are only interested in making money, and therefore wear patch covered uniforms and do not issue Kukkiwon certification to their students. But I choose not to use that lowest common denominator perspective as my basis for my understanding of what Taekwondo is, because if I did do that, if I only looked at what people are actually doing out there, I would probably quit Taekwondo. Instead, I choose to look at things from the pioneer or the founder's perspective, the perspective which tells me that Taekwondo is a beautiful unique creation, something that is worthy of a lifetime of study.

 

[puunui]

Well people train andifferent aspect of TKD when doing sport, must sport people do not do poomsae, one steps or self defense they only work on kicking the sport way.

Just because certain practitioners choose to focus on one aspect at some particular point in their journey does not mean that Taekwondo is not unified. The pioneers themselves focused on different aspects of Taekwondo at different periods of Taekwondo's development.

 

[puunui]

Well also th WTF is going to start to issue there own rank tells me the sport is being seperated from the KKW. If unity is what it wants then why seperate the WTF from the KKW?

The WTF is not going to start to issue their own rank, at least not dan rank.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Glen (I believe that that is your name),

Firstly, I appreciate the input that you have made here at MT since your arrival.

I'd like to ask you, if you feel that there is no distinction between sport and art (for lack of a better way of putting it), how do you reconcile the very clear technical differences between the two?

As you say that you choose to look at things from the pioneer's perspective, do you feel that what WTF sport has become today is really what the pioneers had in mind when taekwondo was new?

I appreciate your response.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Likewise, WTF sport taekwondo has a relation to KKW taekwondo, but the two are still technically distinct.Daniel

No it is not. Unlike your Iaido and Kendo are two separate arts. You can tell because they have different names. There is no separation like in Iaido and Kendo as far as curriculum goes. When I attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, the kicking and competition sparring section of the course was taught by GM KIM Se Hyuk, who was a two or three time coach of the Korean Olympic Team, as well as his Samsung S1 coaches (who also coached at World Championships and other events) and athletes (including gold medal Olympians). At the WTF World Poomsae Championships, the competition is based on the Kukkiwon poomsae.

As I stated in another post, one of the main motivations for unifying Taekwondo was to gain entrance into the Olympic movement. Unification of Taekwondo was one of the main requirements of iOC inclusion. I find it ironic that those who most benefited from the unification, those who are part of the Olympic Taekwondo movement, are the loudest voices in saying that there is no unification.

One word of caution: Taekwondo has many enemies in the Olympic world. Many IOC members hate Taekwondo because they see it as a troublesome sport rife with controversy and disharmony. If you continue to view Taekwondo in the same way, as opposed to seeing it how the pioneers see it, then the end result just may be Taekwondo leaving the Olympic Games. Last year, Dr. Un Yong KIM warned us about this during a speech given at a dinner hosted by the KTA.

Instead of defiantly thumbing our noses at what may be perceived as someone telling us what to do, perhaps a better approach would be to see what we all can do to keep Taekwondo preserved for future generations, which include a unified curriculum and rank structure, as well as a unified competition format at the Olympic Games.

Or we can choose to do whatever we want, no matter who or what gets hurt in the process.

 

[puunui]

I'd like to ask you, if you feel that there is no distinction between sport and art (for lack of a better way of putting it), how do you reconcile the very clear technical differences between the two?

I don't see any technical differences. Which technical differences are you speaking about?

As you say that you choose to look at things from the pioneer's perspective, do you feel that what WTF sport has become today is really what the pioneers had in mind when taekwondo was new?

Yes, I do think that is what they had in mind. From the earliest days, the goal was to unify Taekwondo. Within the martial arts, or any other physical endeavor really, unification often comes when there is competition. For example, under the WTF competition sparring rules, Taekwondo technically has become very unified, especially if you compare how competitors from different countries competing back in the 80's until now. Today, everyone looks remarkably similar in terms of technique.

That same unification is being achieved in poomsae or forms. In the past, forms was almost like the ugly step child in Taekwondo, because everyone was focused on sparring and trying to figure out the training methods to achieve success in that arena. Competition poomsae is doing the same for forms because in order to succeed at the WTF level, everyone must adhere to the same technical standards.

In contrast, look at arts that deemphasize competition -- they are all over the place technically because the instructors literally are free to do whatever they want, because there is no mechanism to enforce uniformity. In competition, you can try whatever you want, but ineffective techniques and training methods will result in losing matches. So everyone must adapt in order to survive and to succeed.

Or you can do what many Taekwondo instructors do and that is to stay within the comforts of their own dojang, isolated from the world.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

No it is not. Unlike your Iaido and Kendo are two separate arts. You can tell because they have different names.

This is a highly simplistic way of looking at it.

No, you cannot tell because they have different names. People can name anything anything that they wish without regards to the content. Names also change over time (kendo having been gekkiken until the thirties), so I do not use them to differentiate arts on a substantive level.

You can tell because the primary implement in kendo is a 39" straight bamboo sword and the primary focus of kendo is shiai sparring with said sword while wearing bogu. Kata in kendo, which while performed with a bokuto, are very different from those in iai, which has no sparring element. Both arts have kata and share the use of the bokuto, at least initially, and both arts are sword arts. Both can trace their roots back to the various schools of kenjutsu. Related, but not the same.

At one point, most, if not all, taekwondo schools in the US had big honkin 'karate' sign on the door. What differentiated taekwondo from karate was in the content, not the marquee.

There is no separation like in Iaido and Kendo as far as curriculum goes. When I attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, the kicking and competition sparring section of the course was taught by GM KIM Se Hyuk, who was a two or three time coach of the Korean Olympic Team, as well as his Samsung S1 coaches (who also coached at World Championships and other events) and athletes (including gold medal Olympians). At the WTF World Poomsae Championships, the competition is based on the Kukkiwon poomsae.

I would not imagine that there would be; execution of kicks in tournament is not going to differ markedly from execution outside of a sport context. But the rule set's emphasis on kicks, and specifically high kicks, does dramatically alter the dynamic of WTF sport taekwondo, and yes, it does so on a technical level.

As I stated in another post, one of the main motivations for unifying Taekwondo was to gain entrance into the Olympic movement. Unification of Taekwondo was one of the main requirements of iOC inclusion. I find it ironic that those who most benefited from the unification, those who are part of the Olympic Taekwondo movement, are the loudest voices in saying that there is no unification.

One word of caution: Taekwondo has many enemies in the Olympic world. Many IOC members hate Taekwondo because they see it as a troublesome sport rife with controversy and disharmony. If you continue to view Taekwondo in the same way, as opposed to seeing it how the pioneers see it, then the end result just may be Taekwondo leaving the Olympic Games. Last year, Dr. Un Yong KIM warned us about this during a speech given at a dinner hosted by the KTA.

Instead of defiantly thumbing our noses at what may be perceived as someone telling us what to do, perhaps a better approach would be to see what we all can do to keep Taekwondo preserved for future generations, which include a unified curriculum and rank structure, as well as a unified competition format at the Olympic Games.

Or we can choose to do whatever we want, no matter who or what gets hurt in the process.

Personally, I do not see the olympics as an effective means of preserving anything, though that has everything to do with my opinion of the olympics and nothing to do with taekwondo.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

do you feel that what WTF sport has become today is really what the pioneers had in mind when taekwondo was new?

One caveat: I do think that the pioneers are disappointed in the direction that the new leadership of the WTF is taking the art. They spent decades trying to create something unique in order to get Taekwondo into the Olympic Games. Now many pioneers feel that we are on the verge of getting kicked out of the Olympic Games due to incompetence and poor decision making. They see all their hard work at creating a unified Taekwondo going down the drain due to misguided juniors acting in ways that is hurtful to Taekwondo.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't see any technical differences. Which technical differences are you speaking about?

Okay...

Basic guard is radically altered in WTF competion due to the fact that hand techniques are no longer much of a factor and hand techniques to the head are not a factor at all.

With no hand strikes to the head allowed, the guard has become a low, hands down position with the competitor leaning back. This both facilitates the execution of high kicks and the avoidance of one's opponent's kicks.

This creates a fighting style where the head is left essentially unguarded and leg techniques are essentially the only choice. This can be done because leg techniques are inherently slower than hand techniques and originate several feet below the head.

I consider the removal of hand techniques and the accompanying change that result to be a pretty large technical difference, particularly in an art whose poomsae contain a greater number of hand techniques than they do leg and foot techniques.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

This is a highly simplistic way of looking at it.

Discussions often begin simply, and then become more complex the deeper you go into it.

Kata in kendo, which while performed with a bokuto, are very different from those in iai, which has no sparring element. Both arts have kata and share the use of the bokuto, at least initially, and both arts are sword arts.

I didn't realize that Kendo had kata. there are kendo schools here and I dont think any of them practice that. I do know that some Kendo instructors here also teach iaido as a separate art and given separate certification in iaido.

At one point, most, if not all, taekwondo schools in the US had big honkin 'karate' sign on the door. What differentiated taekwondo from karate was in the content, not the marquee.

Back then, many Taekwondo schools advertising as Karate were for the most part indistinguishable from Karate.

I would not imagine that there would be; execution of kicks in tournament is not going to differ markedly from execution outside of a sport context. But the rule set's emphasis on kicks, and specifically high kicks, does dramatically alter the dynamic of WTF sport taekwondo, and yes, it does so on a technical level.

But not within the context of the Kukkiwon, since the curriculum is still the same, irrespective of rule changes at the WTF level.

Personally, I do not see the olympics as an effective means of preserving anything, though that has everything to do with my opinion of the olympics and nothing to do with taekwondo.

ok.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One caveat: I do think that the pioneers are disappointed in the direction that the new leadership of the WTF is taking the art. They spent decades trying to create something unique in order to get Taekwondo into the Olympic Games. Now many pioneers feel that we are on the verge of getting kicked out of the Olympic Games due to incompetence and poor decision making. They see all their hard work at creating a unified Taekwondo going down the drain due to misguided juniors acting in ways that is hurtful to Taekwondo.

If you don't mind my asking, precisely what direction is the new leadership of the WTF taking the art?

Daniel