Sanchin Kata

[Bill Mattocks]

I performed the Goju-Ryu version of Sanchin Kata (I am Isshin-Ryu, but we do the Goju version out of respect for Goju) at the dojo today. Normally performed with no shirt, but since nobody wants to see that, I'm sparing you all. I took my gi top off to demonstrate breathing from the hara.

[video=youtube_share;ZpcrmwU4Euw]http://youtu.be/ZpcrmwU4Euw[/video]

I am not teaching anything; I am not qualified to do so. This is not instruction. I made the video to be able to see what I'm doing right and wrong, and to hopefully gain some feedback. Constructive criticism appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Jason Striker II]

I live in China and whatever the link you posted is - it's blocked. Please post the link www. blah blah blah and I will try to access it via proxy.

Thanks.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I live in China and whatever the link you posted is - it's blocked. Please post the link www. blah blah blah and I will try to access it via proxy.

Thanks.

Ah, sorry about that. Does this work?

http://youtu.be/ZpcrmwU4Euw

 

[Jason Striker II]

Osu! Got it, my friend. Looks good. Perhaps a bit more bend in the knees at the end, and a bit more extension on the Mawashi-uke.

Here's me: http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/57964528-1614795704.html

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Osu! Got it, my friend. Looks good. Perhaps a bit more bend in the knees at the end, and a bit more extension on the Mawashi-uke.

Here's me: http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/57964528-1614795704.html

Thanks, that's a nice video you have! I have some more kata that I video'd today; take some time to edit and at the moment, I am on dinner dish-washing detail. Thanks again for the comments!

 

[dancingalone]

Constructive criticism appreciated. Thanks!

Ah, you do the version without the turns.

My pointers will be superficial, since the primary concerns I have do with proper tensioning of the correct muscle groups and stance rooting, both of which are only apparent through testing in person. Regardless, I have a few comments which I hope you will find useful. You should ask your sensei how they fit into the way he prefers for you to practice the kata.

• Your fists rechamber lower to the sides of the hips than a Goju stylist would do it. In Goju the fists would come back high to the side, approximately on the same plane as your pectoral muscles. This helps frame together the arms and shoulders for thrusting actions.
• It may be that you practice a softer form of Sanchin than I teach, at least initially for beginners. I do not see any tension in your face or neck muscles which would be normal in my practice. We do try to build up the neck muscles to the extent that they can be.
• Your mawashi uke seem to be performed with arms only - I didn't detect any pelvic settling with a hip expansion forward to give power to the thrusts.

Dinner beckons. I'll try to post a few more thoughts tomorrow.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Ah, you do the version without the turns.

My pointers will be superficial, since the primary concerns I have do with proper tensioning of the correct muscle groups and stance rooting, both of which are only apparent through testing in person. Regardless, I have a few comments which I hope you will find useful. You should ask your sensei how they fit into the way he prefers for you to practice the kata.

• Your fists rechamber lower to the sides of the hips than a Goju stylist would do it. In Goju the fists would come back high to the side, approximately on the same plane as your pectoral muscles. This helps frame together the arms and shoulders for thrusting actions.
• It may be that you practice a softer form of Sanchin than I teach, at least initially for beginners. I do not see any tension in your face or neck muscles which would be normal in my practice. We do try to build up the neck muscles to the extent that they can be.
• Your mawashi uke seem to be performed with arms only - I didn't detect any pelvic settling with a hip expansion forward to give power to the thrusts.

Dinner beckons. I'll try to post a few more thoughts tomorrow.

Thank you very much! I will ask; but I think you are correct on the chambering. I'll double-check. In Isshin-Ryu (and we do have an Isshin-Ryu version of the Sanchin kata), we chamber at the obi. Let me get back to you on that.

We practice applying tension when we root to the floor; also when the tsuki reaches full extension and when we perform the block. So the pattern for us is exhale, punch, apply pressure via the hara, stop. Inhale very slightly (or continue exhaling if there is breath left) and make the block. As the block reaches top, we again bear down with the muscles in the hara. We do not practice tensioning all the muscles of the body in our style that I am aware of.

Our pelvic 'settling' is probably non-existent; I'll ask about that. I know we did perform it (before my time) with an actual 'flip' that was visible (the obi would flip the ends up) but that was discontinued. There is a pelvic 'tuck' in the sense that the back is to be straight and the pelvis tucked in throughout the kata, but no 'flip' or 'settle' anymore that I'm aware of. I'll ask, though. Thank you!

 

[seasoned]

As was mentioned it is hard to read this kata without being there in person. This kata has much to teach and holds the key to all future kata movements. Our Sanchin stance is a little bit tighter, and as mentioned the chamber is higher for us also. As the fist chamber goes up along side the pectoral muscle the elbow is pointing down so the shoulder stays down.

 

[K-man]

My initial reply disappeared into cyberspace. However, in short, I agree totally with seasoned and dancingalone as to the positioning of the fists but if you are doing an Issinryu kata then it has been substantially changed from Goju. In Goju the breathing is much harder at the beginning and end of each move. Also Goju has a stronger stance with head, shoulders and hips in a vertical line through the centre of gravity. If you look at your stance, especially, in the later parts of the kata, your head is forward rather than up. Also your sanchin dachi stance is, much longer than Goju. We have the heel of the front foot in line with the toes of the back foot. Then, after the punches, the next move in Goju is more of a press down rather than a nukite. Your palms are turning out at the end of the move whereas in Goju that 'grab' comes at the first part of pulling the hands back to carriage. Another difference is the big arm movement in your mawashi uke. Goju is much tighter with the upper hand moving across the face.

Finally, the breathing at the end is normally one short exhale then inhale and a number of tighter compressions forcing out the last bit of air. (This is actually meant to take the Ki from the arms and replace it in the tanden.)

Cheers, K

 

[Bill Mattocks]

My initial reply disappeared into cyberspace. However, in short, I agree totally with seasoned and dancingalone as to the positioning of the fists but if you are doing an Issinryu kata then it has been substantially changed from Goju. In Goju the breathing is much harder at the beginning and end of each move. Also Goju has a stronger stance with head, shoulders and hips in a vertical line through the centre of gravity. If you look at your stance, especially, in the later parts of the kata, your head is forward rather than up. Also your sanchin dachi stance is, much longer than Goju. We have the heel of the front foot in line with the toes of the back foot. Then, after the punches, the next move in Goju is more of a press down rather than a nukite. Your palms are turning out at the end of the move whereas in Goju that 'grab' comes at the first part of pulling the hands back to carriage. Another difference is the big arm movement in your mawashi uke. Goju is much tighter with the upper hand moving across the face.

Finally, the breathing at the end is normally one short exhale then inhale and a number of tighter compressions forcing out the last bit of air. (This is actually meant to take the Ki from the arms and replace it in the tanden.)

Cheers, K

Thank you for the comments. I belong to the UIKA, and they perform Sanchin the way I demonstrated (well, I'm sure they do it better than I do, but you know what I mean). I am informed that it is to 'honor' Goju by using the corkscrew punch (which we normally do not use) and the movements seen. It's interesting that Goju doesn't actually do it that way.

I will look at my head position, it should not change, I agree. As to the stance, I'll have to ask; our stances are normally heel-toe, but we do take deeper / longer stances sometimes, this might be one of them.

Those 'nukites' you saw after the punches were supposed to simulate separating an attacker's incoming double-handed grab. It was described to me as if I were running my hands around the outside of a big vase, from bottom to top, then inserting my hands into the neck of the vase and pulling it apart.

We also perform Sanchin using the 'Isshin-Ryu' variation, which is slightly different. The punches are vertical, the blocks are as well, and instead of a rounded 'follow the vase outline' nukite, it's a straight gouge, followed by a ripping apart motion.

 

[punisher73]

Here is a good representation of Goju-Ryu's Sanchin kata. A very good book (and companion dvd) is "The Way of Sanchin Kata" by Kris Wilder. He goes into a lot of detail about the kata and history and the mechanics that I think could benefit anyone that practices the kata regardless of style.

Since everyone's style IS different, double check with your instructor on any changes since what is "wrong" for one person may be the "right" way for another do to stylistic differences. For example, Goju-Ryu does chamber higher, but yours may still chamber at the hip while still honoring it's Goju-Ryu roots.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Here is a good representation of Goju-Ryu's Sanchin kata. A very good book (and companion dvd) is "The Way of Sanchin Kata" by Kris Wilder. He goes into a lot of detail about the kata and history and the mechanics that I think could benefit anyone that practices the kata regardless of style.

Since everyone's style IS different, double check with your instructor on any changes since what is "wrong" for one person may be the "right" way for another do to stylistic differences. For example, Goju-Ryu does chamber higher, but yours may still chamber at the hip while still honoring it's Goju-Ryu roots.

Thank you for the video and information. I have that book and I recommend it also. I will ask about chambering the fists, but I know we don't do the hip flip seen in the video you posted. We've talked about it in our dojo; we have done it in the past before my time, but we do not do it now. We 'tuck the pelvis' through the entire kata; the back should be a straight line with the hips tucked in and under, but no obvious flipping movement.

 

[punisher73]

Thank you for the video and information. I have that book and I recommend it also. I will ask about chambering the fists, but I know we don't do the hip flip seen in the video you posted. We've talked about it in our dojo; we have done it in the past before my time, but we do not do it now. We 'tuck the pelvis' through the entire kata; the back should be a straight line with the hips tucked in and under, but no obvious flipping movement.

I know for us we used to use the term "tuck the butt/pelvis" to describe the action, but then it would get really overexagerated and would round the spine torwards the front, which was also not good. It's hard to describe the action of making the spine straight from the tailbone up to the crown of the head, but makes alot of sense with a couple minutes of hands on.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I know for us we used to use the term "tuck the butt/pelvis" to describe the action, but then it would get really overexagerated and would round the spine torwards the front, which was also not good. It's hard to describe the action of making the spine straight from the tailbone up to the crown of the head, but makes alot of sense with a couple minutes of hands on.

Yeah, I've seen a few 'tucks' that look more like a pelvic thrust. Kinda expected a cowboy buttslap after that....

 

[millerskj]

Bill,

Look at Morio Higaonna's DVD's for Goju Ryu Sanchin. It doesn't get too much better than that.

Jeff

 

[donald1]

this must be the miyagi no sanchin i heard of it based on one direction but i was only taught the higaonna no sanchin where you turn around then turn back. do opponents strike you during the Kata like higaonna no sanchin

 

[K-man]

this must be the miyagi no sanchin i heard of it based on one direction but i was only taught the higaonna no sanchin where you turn around then turn back. do opponents strike you during the Kata like higaonna no sanchin

Yes. This is the Miyagi version and the testing varies according to the school. Sometimes they hit you with everything, sometimes they are just testing for correct body structure and posture.

There are two versions of the Sanchin with the turns. Higaonnna originally taught it that way and Yamaguchi took that version into Goju Kai and changed it slightly, retaining the two turns. :asian:

 

[Uncle]

I've actually been trying to learn as much of the uechi ryu/pangai noon version of sanchin as I can. Many of the mechanics are similar to wing chun and practicing what I've learned of it has actually improved my wing chun. I just can't seem to master the transitional circling movement leading into the double palm strike.

It's a shame there aren't any good karate schools around me. It's something I'd very much like to have proper instruction in.

 

[punisher73]

I've actually been trying to learn as much of the uechi ryu/pangai noon version of sanchin as I can. Many of the mechanics are similar to wing chun and practicing what I've learned of it has actually improved my wing chun. I just can't seem to master the transitional circling movement leading into the double palm strike.

It's a shame there aren't any good karate schools around me. It's something I'd very much like to have proper instruction in.

I think a search of youtube videos will find ones that instruct on how to do the mawashi uke. It is slightly different from style to style. One of the things about the Uechi-Ryu version is that you are striking with the thumb knuckle and not the heel palms as in other versions.

 

[Uncle]

I think a search of youtube videos will find ones that instruct on how to do the mawashi uke. It is slightly different from style to style. One of the things about the Uechi-Ryu version is that you are striking with the thumb knuckle and not the heel palms as in other versions.

Thanks! And that doesn't bother me so much. I'm just going to be doing po pai using the dynamic tension in sanchin anyway. It's only a slight difference in hand position.