Sanchin kata

[donald1]

Specifically (myagi's version of sanchin)
Me and some of the other students in my class were talking after class and one of the questions "how many versions of sanchin are considered myagi's version" that could be an unknown answer but do you know?

A second question (for people in goju ryu) this sanchin question isn't specifically myagi's version it could be higaonna's version or some other, but my instructor described how a lot of goju on sanchin afterwards punches pull their arms straight back. His question was are there schools out there that pull towards body first before pulling back (almost like rubbing arm against chest before pulling arm all the way back)apologies if last question might not make good since, hard to phrase it into words

 

[K-man]

Specifically (myagi's version of sanchin)
Me and some of the other students in my class were talking after class and one of the questions "how many versions of sanchin are considered myagi's version" that could be an unknown answer but do you know?

A second question (for people in goju ryu) this sanchin question isn't specifically myagi's version it could be higaonna's version or some other, but my instructor described how a lot of goju on sanchin afterwards punches pull their arms straight back. His question was are there schools out there that pull towards body first before pulling back (almost like rubbing arm against chest before pulling arm all the way back)apologies if last question might not make good since, hard to phrase it into words

Within Goju there are three main versions of Sanchin and slight variation even among those. There are also variations as you go to the other styles such as Uechi Ryu. Within Goju you have Miyagi's Sanchin and Higaonna's Sanchin, the latter that has the turns and extra stepping. The Japanese Goju Kai (Yamaguchi) version has the turns but not as much stepping. So there really is only one Miyagi version that is passed down.

As to the 'flowery' flourish of the arm pulling back. That is the after market version. From the double Chudan Uke position the fist is drawn straight back to carriage. The extension is straight out to Chudan tsuki. From where the extension finishes the fist simply returns to the Chudan Uke position as the forearm rotates.
:asian:

 

[hussaf]

Heck, I've seen people pull back into hikite in different variations in the same organization! (in sanchin)

 

[tshadowchaser]

I learned a version with a pull across the chest but I have seen at least 3 versions of this form done the with the same movement.
one with straight line movement
one with a straight line movement and the a turn and return
one with the above and then a left and right turn at the end

 

[hussaf]

principals are all the same though, even the Uechi version.

 

[K-man]

I just went looking to see if I could find all three versions. I couldn't find the Higaonna version.

For the technically minded there are some subtle differences that you can see illustrated in these two versions.
In the Okinawan version the arm is withdrawn so the fist initially is drawn straight back towards the shoulder. When the fist is nearly to the shoulder the elbow is drawn back taking the fist to carriage.

In the Japanese version the fist is drawn back directly to carriage but with the little curve toward the centre.

In the Okinawan version at the end, with Mawashi Uke, the hands are pressed in toward the centre where in the Japanese version the hands are directed out.

Note that at the end of the extension and the return, neither version has the flick of the fist you see a lot of people doing.

Goju Ryu (Okinawan)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kybxNOlnl20

Goju Kai (Japanese)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EpEVNUIkVx8
:asian:

 

[punisher73]

I just went looking to see if I could find all three versions. I couldn't find the Higaonna version.

:asian:

Even that will change slightly based on when he taught. When Higaonna first taught Sanchin, it was said that it was taught with open hands (very much like Uechi Ryu's version) and had a softer breathing. Later, he changed it to the closed fists and altered the breathing.

 

[K-man]

Certainly the hands were closed when karate went into the schools but the Jundokan breathing is still much softer than Uichi Ryu or Goju Kai.
:asian:

 

[donald1]

This is not a sanchin question, but thought I'd add it here instead of making a whole thread about one question; my question is about seisan, seisan meaning 13, now my question is 13 of what?

 

[hoshin1600]

Higaonna did not change the kata to closed fists, Miyagi did. Higaonna taught the form as he learned it from his teacher. It would not have had the same dynamic tension and the hands were open. The breath was a quick exhale as you punch at a normal quick speed. Many people focus on the differences this is a Okinawa and Japanese view from the Chinese perspective it is all the same form with personal preferences. I have never seen the true Higaonna version preformed. Many people do an old style Miyagi kata and mistakenly call it Higaonna because it has turns in it.

 

[seasoned]

This is not a sanchin question, but thought I'd add it here instead of making a whole thread about one question; my question is about seisan, seisan meaning 13, now my question is 13 of what?

Some say that, in accordance with its name, Seisan contains 8 defensive and 5 offensive techniques. Others argue that the original kata would have had 13 techniques but that these have long since been added to or taken from, as the case may be.

 

[Seizan]

Some say that, in accordance with its name, Seisan contains 8 defensive and 5 offensive techniques. Others argue that the original kata would have had 13 techniques but that these have long since been added to or taken from, as the case may be.

This may be purely a UechiRyu Zankyokai point of view, but we’re taught that Sanchin means “Three Challenges” being those of softness, timing, and power on impact. Also, Sanchin was taught in the 3rd stage of training. 1st stage was posture and breathing with simple thrusting movements. 2nd stage was stepping with the thrusts and turning. 3rd stage was adding blocks and stepping-off movements, and putting the whole form together as a coherent single kata. It supposedly took up to 10 years to reach Stage 3, but training was eventually abbreviated to a 3-year period.

While the physical moves may be taught easily enough these days, it is a matter of debate whether one actually "masters" the form in as short as 3 to 10 years...

Seisan would be the culmination of adding new steps and techniques at stages of training up to 12, then linking all the moves together as a single kata in the 13th stage. In fact, Kanbun Sensei taught kata in this manner – individual techniques were exhaustedly repeated and trained until he was satisfied with the performances of all of them, then finally he put the techniques or sequences together as a whole kata.

I know it is often taught as “13 attack/defense postures”, 13 hands, or 13 techniques, etc. But I fail to find a 13 count no matter how hard I try to force it. The closest I have heard outside of Toyama Sensei’s training was “13 steps” but the term “steps” was misinterpreted to mean actual stepping of the feet (which also does not fit). So most people believe today that the kata was changed or modified to hide or “disguise” the true meaning (for no easily-apparent reason).

Same with Sanseiryu (Sandairyu). At the 36th stage of training, the previously-taught techniques were pieced together like a puzzle to show a finished kata.

By keeping the techniques separated for each form until the final stage, the student was not so inclined to attempt a sloppy performance, nor could the kata be easily imitated until the student proved his mettle in long-term training. Each technique had to be satisfactorily mastered along the way before the student was granted the form in its entirety. Getting to that final stage for any form could well take years. Sort of makes one wonder what the standard was really like way back then, and how powerful the performances had to be to qualify to go on to the next level, as opposed to today’s fast-track training.

Please allow a reminder that this not intended to direct or dictate training or changes in the performance of any non-ZKK person. I am merely presenting a different point of view for interest sake...

 

[TimoS]

At the 36th stage of training

Just out of curiosity, how many stages are there?

 

[Seizan]

Just out of curiosity, how many stages are there?

In UechiRyu, there would be 36 stages (IAW three original kata from China). If the original Suparimpe form had come to Okinawa with Kanbun Sensei, there would be 108 stages (steps). However he often stated (and it is recorded) that he never learned the Suparimpe form.

 

[K-man]

Well we do have Suparenpei in Goju but I'm not sure about the 108 stages. I have heard mention of 108 techniques.

 

[Seizan]

Well we do have Suparenpei in Goju but I'm not sure about the 108 stages. I have heard mention of 108 techniques.

I've seen a few versions of the kata, but there is no way to know which one (if any of those existent today) might have been the one that Kanbun Sensei would have learned had he stayed in China.

Several folks insist there are 3, 13, and 36 techniques or defensive moves in kata Sanchin, Seisan, and Sandairyu. If I press, I am usually shown different interpretations (techniques counted differently, combined to make up the requisite number, or broken apart for the same reason). Sometimes I hear of 3/13/36 techniques and three (or more) "asides" (huh?) but the teacher goes on to insist that 13+3 do not equal 16... Or 33 techniques and three "missing / secret" techniques. Etc.

To each his own. I have no reason to disbelieve in stages of training, having seen and used this method for years. Zankyokai is Zankyokai, as mentioned. My teacher was a direct student of the founder of the system, and taught as he was taught.

 

[hussaf]

In my goju organization we pretty much state our version of the various kata have more changes to the original version than, say, what Uechi taught.

 

[Seizan]

In my goju organization we pretty much state our version of the various kata have more changes to the original version than, say, what Uechi taught.

Many UechiRyu practitioners tell that Uechi Kanbun Sensei created the system based on training he received in China, and that he changed or modified the 3 original forms from China for training Japanese (as opposed to Chinese) students. However, Kanbun Sensei changed nothing he learned from his teacher in China. Kanbun Sensei's own son Kanei Sensei (who inherited the system leadership) stated this himself, and made publically clear that he (Kanei Sensei) was responsible for modifying the system to what is known today as traditional UechiRyu. Comparing Kanbun Sensei's teachings and those of his son, there have been several changes to form what is known popularly as UechiRyu.

But this is getting far from the original question regarding Miyagi Sensei's original version of Sanchin. I only came to offer some info when UechiRyu kata were mentioned. As I understand it, Miyagi Sensei learned an open-hand version of Sanchin in China, but changed it to a closed-hand version later. I'm afraid that's the extent of my information on his Sanchin teachings.

 

[hussaf]

yeah that's pretty much the story's we've heard as well. I'm just happy to train in the Uechi version to get different perspective