Reason for all the high kicks and ariel techniques

[Dirty Dog]

Once again, my grading certificate is ITF and my dobok has the writing ITF. Please adress how such a school could be "ITF neutral." and that there are no ITF or WTF schools.

You must be a joy to teach, given how unwilling you are to learn from your mistakes.
Nobody ever said there were no ITF schools. That you think I did is merely an example of your poor reading comprehension. As I suggested earlier, go back and re-read what I wrote. Ask for help if you don't understand it.
As for the WTF... all you have to do is read their own web site. I provided you with a link earlier.
But you would have to understand what they wrote. That much is true...

Did you know that swedish national competitiors in ITF are not allowed to compete in the upcoming olympics (unless they work it out by then)?

ITF practitioners can compete in WTF competitions by virtue of an agreement reached last year or the year before. Prior that that agreement, it was necessary for ITF practitioners to obtain KKW Dan rank (which was granted on request).

I don't know the exact politics of it, but that sounds very strange if there is no way to be ITF affiliated.

Once again, what you've written here is nothing more than an example of your inability to understand what is written. Please, show me ONE example of where I or any other member here has said you cannot be ITF affiliated.

I am sure other schools put more emphasis on high kicking/aerials, but I stand by this point to my grave, KKW/WTF it is NOT comparable. That is: I am quite certain the reverse is almost never true: less aerial kicking in a random KKW/WTF training school, than ITF school.

And yet, I've told you flat out that our KKW/MDK school has virtually no aerial kicking training. That's a sample size of one, the same as what you're using.

 

[Laplace_demon]

And yet, I've told you flat out that our KKW/MDK school has virtually no aerial kicking training. That's a sample size of one, the same as what you're using.

Just about any KKW school employing WTF sparring rules geared towards competition will fit my description perfectly.

Do you seriously cling to the belief that my experience is a pure coincidence (related to sample), despite everything I read about before transitioning? I am flabbergasted.

 

[jks9199]

Gentlemen,
Let's cool it down a bit. The exchanges are getting rather heated and personal. Stick to the topic, and let's try to avoid attacking each other.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Just about any KKW school employing WTF sparring rules geared towards competition will fit my description perfectly.

Do you seriously cling to the belief that my experience is a pure coincidence (related to sample), despite everything I read about before transitioning? I am flabbergasted.

Actually, I think you would rather cling to your misinformation, regardless of how many times it's shown to be wrong.
You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn.
They say ignorance is bliss.
Enjoy yours.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Just about any KKW school employing WTF sparring rules geared towards competition will fit my description perfectly.

Do you seriously cling to the belief that my experience is a pure coincidence (related to sample), despite everything I read about before transitioning? I am flabbergasted.

If you're speaking of aerial kicking techniques, I'd have to disagree with you. A competition focused school will focus on footwork and the most common competition kicks (i.e. Roundhouse kick). The jumping, flipping, and spinning kicks are more common in demonstration focused classes.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It does look like he was extending his hand to touch gloves. But it's also true that they'd already touched and the bell had rung to start the round.
Extended to touch or whatever, he clearly wasn't guarding.
And that's a phenomenally stupid thing to do after the bell rings.

They usually tell the fighters at the beginning to be prepared to protect themselves at all times.

 

[Laplace_demon]

If you're speaking of aerial kicking techniques, I'd have to disagree with you. A competition focused school will focus on footwork and the most common competition kicks (i.e. Roundhouse kick). The jumping, flipping, and spinning kicks are more common in demonstration focused classes.

I wrote: WTF sparring geared towards competiton. Doesn't mean the school as a hole is neccesarily geared towards competition. Dirty Dogs school is private and therefore not representative. My school is not private. My instructor is technical advisor to the swedish national team, and I can honestly say that no adult black belt masters any advanced aerial kicking. Most amatuers can perform flying sidekick and land properly. I don't concider it "advanced". We can thus
conclude that I have the countrys most prominent ITF master, as written on an independent swedish website, a technical advisor (appointed by General Choi) , yet my school, which he teaches daily, is an exception.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I wrote: WTF sparring geared towards competiton. Doesn't mean the school as a hole is neccesarily geared towards competition. Dirty Dogs school is private and therefore not representative. My school is not private. My instructor is technical advisor to the swedish national team, and I can honestly say that no adult black belt masters any advanced aerial kicking. Most amatuers can perform flying sidekick and land properly. I don't concider it "advanced". We can thus
conclude that I have the countrys most prominent ITF master, as written on an independent swedish website, a technical advisor (appointed by General Choi) , yet my school, which he teaches daily, is an exception.

I'm not sure what your post has to do with what I wrote, to be honest.

On the topic of your school, what do you mean it's not private? Do you mean that it's affiliated with ITF and not independent? At any rate, it's highly possible that your school could be an exception. I've never seen any organization dictate how daily classes are run at individual schools. The only way to tell if something is common or standard is to see a large representative sample of schools. Thinking that most schools are the same as your school is folly.

 

[Gnarlie]

There are over 4000 Kukkiwon registered schools just in the US. Even discounting the schools in the rest of the world, and discounting those that practice unregistered using the KKW curriculum, and discounting any ITF or other so-called 'traditional' TKD activity, the following is true:

In order to form a representative sample for such a population of schools, with a confidence interval of 95% and an error margin of +-5%, which is generally accepted for quantitative research, you would need to use a sample of at least 400 schools.

When we talk about a statistically reliable representative sample, that is what we are saying.

I seriously doubt any of us have that kind of training experience, so yes, assuming what is true in one's own experience holds true everywhere is indeed folly.

On topic, I have never practiced aerial kicking outside of demonstration oriented classes.

Also, a number of aerial kicks are covered in Choi's encyclopedia, are they not?

 

[Laplace_demon]

i

There are over 4000 Kukkiwon registered schools just in the US. Even discounting the schools in the rest of the world, and discounting those that practice unregistered using the KKW curriculum, and discounting any ITF or other so-called 'traditional' TKD activity, the following is true:

In order to form a representative sample for such a population of schools, with a confidence interval of 95% and an error margin of +-5%, which is generally accepted for quantitative research, you would need to use a sample of at least 400 schools.

When we talk about a statistically reliable representative sample, that is what we are saying.

I seriously doubt any of us have that kind of training experience, so yes, assuming what is true in one's own experience holds true everywhere is indeed folly.

On topic, I have never practiced aerial kicking outside of demonstration oriented classes.

Also, a number of aerial kicks are covered in Choi's encyclopedia, are they not?

My contention is not concerned with number of schools that does X, Y and Z. My objection is more fundamental than that. ITF is not oriented towards aerials, beyond fairly basic ones. This in large part due to lineage and traditions. It´s simply dishonest to claim otherwise and somehow assert that Tae Kwon Do, no matter which style, is an advanced aerial kicking art.

 

[Gnarlie]

i


My contention is not concerned with number of schools that does X, Y and Z. My objection is more fundamental than that. ITF is not oriented towards aerials, beyond fairly basic ones. This in large part due to lineage and traditions. It´s simply dishonest to claim otherwise and somehow assert that Tae Kwon Do, no matter which style, is an advanced aerial kicking art.

And who is arguing such a point? Or is it a straw man you brought with you?


Volume 7 of Choi's encyclopedia contains the following, listed as "Fundamental Exercises". If you're not practicing them, you are missing a large part of the ITF syllabus. Incidentally, this is a similar variety of kicks to those I have practiced as a KKW student for demonstration purposes. So, looks like you might have the wrong impression.

Flying consecutive kick Twimyo Yinsok Chagi

Reverse Hooking and Turning Kick (both in a single jump)

Crescent and middle twisting kick (both in a single jump)

Flying triple side kick (Twimyo Samjung Yop Chagi)

Triple vertical kick

Flying Reverse Hooking Kick (Twimyo Bandae Dollyo Goro Chagi)

Flying Crescent Kick (Twimyo Bandal Chagi)

Flying Reverse Hooking and Turning Kick (Twimyo Bandae Dollyo Goro Chagi wa Dollyo Chagi) in a single jump

Flying Crescent and Side Piercing Kick (Twimyo Bandal Chagi Wa Yopcha Jireugi) in a single jump

Mid Air Kick (Twio Dolmyo Chagi) and a 360 spinning variant

Mid air strike (Twimyo Dolmyo Taerigi) in 180 and 360 degree variants

Flying high kick (Twimyo Nopi Chagi)

Flying Side Front Kick (Twimyo Yobap Chagi)

Flying Middle Twisting Kick (Twimyo Kaunde Bituro Chagi)

Flying Outward Vertical Kick (Twimyo Bakuro Sewo Chagi)

Flying High Twisting Kick (Twimyo Nopunde Bitro Chagi)

Various jumping hand strikes and dodges with jumping kicks

Flying Hooking Kick (Twimyo Golcho Chagi)

Flying Double Foot Side Pushing Kick (Twimyo Doobal Yopcha Milgi)

Flying Twin Side Piercing Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Yopcha Jireugi)

Various flying hand techniques

Flying Double Side Kick (Twimyo I Jung Yop Chagi)

Flying Double Turning Kick (Twimyo I Jung Dollyo Chagi)

Flying Double Front Snap Kick (Twimyo I Jung Apcha Busigi)

Various flying hand techniques

Overhead Kick (Twio Nomo Chagi)

Flying Twin Foot Middle Twisting Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Kaunde Bituro Chagi)

Flying Foot Twin High Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Nopi Chagi)

Flying Square Punching Kick (Twio Sagak Jirumyo Chagi)

Flying Trapezoid Punching Kick (Twio Jekak Jirumyo Chagi)

Flying U Shape Punching Kick (Twio Digutja Jirumyo Chagi)

Flying Twin Foot Turning Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Dolkyo Chagi)

Flying Sprial Kick (Twimyo Nasonik Chagi)

Flying Triple Front Kick (Twimyo Samjung Ap Chagi)

Flying Triple Turning Kick (Twimyo Samjung Dollyo Chagi)

Flying Three Direction Kick (Twimyo Sambang Chagi)

Flying Four Direction Kick (Twimyo Sabang Chagi)

Variants combined with punches

 

[Dirty Dog]

I wrote: WTF sparring geared towards competiton. Doesn't mean the school as a hole is neccesarily geared towards competition. Dirty Dogs school is private and therefore not representative. My school is not private. My instructor is technical advisor to the swedish national team, and I can honestly say that no adult black belt masters any advanced aerial kicking. Most amatuers can perform flying sidekick and land properly. I don't concider it "advanced". We can thus
conclude that I have the countrys most prominent ITF master, as written on an independent swedish website, a technical advisor (appointed by General Choi) , yet my school, which he teaches daily, is an exception.

My school is what? From what bodily orifice did you extract this latest bit of tripe?
We are, as I have said many times, a YMCA-based program, with open doors, free "come check it out" classes, and scholarships for those who cannot afford the $40 per month fee.
Yeah. That's pretty private. Very exclusive.

What we can thus conclude is that you are, once again, completely and totally wrong. But don't let that stop you from blathering on.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Laplace_demon]

And who is arguing such a point? Or is it a straw man you brought with you?


Volume 7 of Choi's encyclopedia contains the following, listed as "Fundamental Exercises". If you're not practicing them, you are missing a large part of the ITF syllabus. Incidentally, this is a similar variety of kicks to those I have practiced as a KKW student for demonstration purposes. So, looks like you might have the wrong impression.

Flying consecutive kick Twimyo Yinsok Chagi

Reverse Hooking and Turning Kick (both in a single jump)

Crescent and middle twisting kick (both in a single jump)

Flying triple side kick (Twimyo Samjung Yop Chagi)

Triple vertical kick

Flying Reverse Hooking Kick (Twimyo Bandae Dollyo Goro Chagi)

Flying Crescent Kick (Twimyo Bandal Chagi)

Flying Reverse Hooking and Turning Kick (Twimyo Bandae Dollyo Goro Chagi wa Dollyo Chagi) in a single jump

Flying Crescent and Side Piercing Kick (Twimyo Bandal Chagi Wa Yopcha Jireugi) in a single jump

Mid Air Kick (Twio Dolmyo Chagi) and a 360 spinning variant

Mid air strike (Twimyo Dolmyo Taerigi) in 180 and 360 degree variants

Flying high kick (Twimyo Nopi Chagi)

Flying Side Front Kick (Twimyo Yobap Chagi)

Flying Middle Twisting Kick (Twimyo Kaunde Bituro Chagi)

Flying Outward Vertical Kick (Twimyo Bakuro Sewo Chagi)

Flying High Twisting Kick (Twimyo Nopunde Bitro Chagi)

Various jumping hand strikes and dodges with jumping kicks

Flying Hooking Kick (Twimyo Golcho Chagi)

Flying Double Foot Side Pushing Kick (Twimyo Doobal Yopcha Milgi)

Flying Twin Side Piercing Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Yopcha Jireugi)

Various flying hand techniques

Flying Double Side Kick (Twimyo I Jung Yop Chagi)

Flying Double Turning Kick (Twimyo I Jung Dollyo Chagi)

Flying Double Front Snap Kick (Twimyo I Jung Apcha Busigi)

Various flying hand techniques

Overhead Kick (Twio Nomo Chagi)

Flying Twin Foot Middle Twisting Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Kaunde Bituro Chagi)

Flying Foot Twin High Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Nopi Chagi)

Flying Square Punching Kick (Twio Sagak Jirumyo Chagi)

Flying Trapezoid Punching Kick (Twio Jekak Jirumyo Chagi)

Flying U Shape Punching Kick (Twio Digutja Jirumyo Chagi)

Flying Twin Foot Turning Kick (Twimyo Sangbal Dolkyo Chagi)

Flying Sprial Kick (Twimyo Nasonik Chagi)

Flying Triple Front Kick (Twimyo Samjung Ap Chagi)

Flying Triple Turning Kick (Twimyo Samjung Dollyo Chagi)

Flying Three Direction Kick (Twimyo Sambang Chagi)

Flying Four Direction Kick (Twimyo Sabang Chagi)

Variants combined with punches

None of this is part of my school, needless to say. The black belts (with a few exceptions) can barely extend their legs straight standing, let alone in the air. And yet they recieved black belts.

 

[Gnarlie]

None of this is part of my school, needless to say. The black belts (with a few exceptions) can barely extend their legs straight standing, let alone in the air. And yet they recieved black belts.

Perhaps their strengths lie in other areas. It is evident that what is practiced at your school is adjusted to suit the ability level of the people in the group. That doesn't mean that they are not worth a black belt, nor does it mean that these more advanced aerial techniques are not part of Taekwondo. Taekwondo means different things to different people and is a progressively challenging syllabus. This is as it should be.

 

[Laplace_demon]

My school is what? From what bodily orifice did you extract this latest bit of tripe?
We are, as I have said many times, a YMCA-based program, with open doors, free "come check it out" classes, and scholarships for those who cannot afford the $40 per month fee.
Yeah. That's pretty private. Very exclusive.

What we can thus conclude is that you are, once again, completely and totally wrong. But don't let that stop you from blathering on.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

Well, I thought your students were taught privately, based on what your wrote earlier. Or you simply offer both and I missunderstod you.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Perhaps their strengths lie in other areas. It is evident that what is practiced at your school is adjusted to suit the ability level of the people in the group. That doesn't mean that they are not worth a black belt, nor does it mean that these more advanced aerial techniques are not part of Taekwondo. Taekwondo means different things to different people and is a progressively challenging syllabus. This is as it should be.

I strongly disagree. If you are not able to (properly) execute the techniques with straight legs, you are not a legitimate black belt. Nobody has ever been rejected a grading, that they know of, when I asked a black belt.

This degrades the importance of belt and ranking. It has no meaning.

 

[Gnarlie]

I strongly disagree. If you are not able to (properly) execute the techniques with straight legs, you are not a legitimate black belt. Nobody has ever been rejected a grading, that they know of, when I asked a black belt.

This degrades the importance of belt and ranking. It has no meaning.

Entirely different discussion. Start a new thread if you like.

Black belt carries meaning for those who earn it and those who award it. If you are not either of those people, who are you to judge?

It's clear enough that your highly qualified 8th dan instructor views them as good enough. I'd be more inclined to accept his opinion than yours.

 

[Laplace_demon]

[QUOTE="Gnarlie, post: 1699003, member: 27131"

It's clear enough that your highly qualified 8th dan instructor views them as good enough. I'd be more inclined to accept his opinion than yours.[/QUOTE]

You don't find it embarrassing at all that I, a mere yellow belt, can execute techniques correctly and fast, while the black belts looks like beginners? We train against each other and when we switch turns kicking, it looks like I trained for ten years, and they started in august. If you don't pass the exam, you shouldn't get it either. By your logic, not solving the math questions, but understanding them in theory would be enough, despite incorrect answers.

It is related to the discussion, given that experienced practioners of the art are not capable of performing high kicks or aerials, which is supposed to be an integral part of Tae Kwon Do, according to the threadmaker. I thus challenge this very notion.

 

[Gnarlie]

You don't find it embarrassing at all that I, a mere yellow belt, can execute techniques correctly and fast, while the black belts looks like beginners?

I haven't seen them or you train, but again, I wouldn't take your word for it, because you have pretty limited experience, and therefore limited self awareness.

We train against each other and when we switch turns kicking, it looks like I trained for ten years, and they started in august.

To your yellow belt eyes, perhaps.

If you don't pass the exam, you shouldn't get it either.

Never said otherwise.

By your logic, not solving the math questions, but understanding them in theory would be enough, despite incorrect answers.

By your logic, the paralympics would not exist, parataekwondo would not exist, and every black belt would be able to execute every technique 100% correctly. This is patently not the case, particularly for lower dan grades.

It is related to the discussion, given that experienced practioners of the art are not capable of performing high kicks or aerials, which is supposed to be an integral part of Tae Kwon Do, according to the threadmaker. I thus challenge this very notion.

It is an integral part of Taekwondo according to two other, rather more authoritative and credible sources: the Kukkiwon, and Choi's encyclopedia. The techniques we are discussing are demonstration techniques. It is absolutely not necessary to be able to perform them to reach a dan grade. They are part of the syllabus, but everybody's skills and abilities are different. These techniques exist to challenge the more talented among our number. Being a black belt is about reaching and developing your own potential, not about reaching some arbitrary standard that somebody else applies. People do fail gradings, but it is generally because it is clear to the examiner that they are not trying to perform to their potential. There is no universal standard for black belt. There are some techniques to be demonstrated, and then it's up to the examiner to decide if they have been performed to the best of the candidate's ability.



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[Gnarlie]

Nobody has ever been rejected a grading, that they know of, when I asked a black belt.

Do you honestly think they would tell a yellow belt if someone had?


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