A Question of Technique and Practical Application.

[K-man]

In another thread this video was put up to show that Krav techniques are not effective for Reality Based training. The original poster seems to be an expert on YouTube clips but little else, but I digress. In this clip a guy called Moni Aizik is demonstrating a defence against a shoot takedown. Now Moni has a Judo background and is not really Krav (a simple search will give you details if you like), so this is not really a Krav technique at all despite the YouTube label.

What I would like to discuss, hopefully with guys with extensive RB backgrounds like Rich, Brian and TSD, what do you think of this technique? I won't comment beyond saying that I took it to my karate class last night and I will give it to my Krav guys tonight. I'll discuss my feelings after a few people have a chance to respond.

Here is the clip.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dNLrxp459gc

:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Doesn't work. From any perspective really. I don't even think that would class as a double or single leg takedown. It is sort of a busted mash between the two. Actually I am doing judo tonight. I can even ask if that is in any way in line with that.

 

[Blindside]

Can someone explain to me why a simple sprawl wouldn't be a better answer than gambling on landing a dropping elbow?

 

[drop bear]

Can someone explain to me why a simple sprawl wouldn't be a better answer than gambling on landing a dropping elbow?

Here is the theory.
Elbows are not allowed in competition and therefore give the advantage to the person that trains them as takedown defence.

 

[K-man]

Can someone explain to me why a simple sprawl wouldn't be a better answer than gambling on landing a dropping elbow?

If you listen to the commentary he states that he wants to avoid going to the ground so from that perspective a sprawl may not be appropriate.

Here, perhaps, is another alternative but it still means probably going to the ground. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GhVbdRdXliw

As to the elbow strike, it is not a dropping elbow to my way of thinking. It's more of a swinging elbow.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Sprawl
Cross face
Over hook.

Sprawl
Cross face
Over hook.

Sprawl
Crosface
Over hook.

From there you can reality all over the place. Heck re stomp the groin until it falls off. But first.

Sprawl
Cross face
Over hook.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Can someone explain to me why a simple sprawl wouldn't be a better answer than gambling on landing a dropping elbow?

Because an elbow would allow you maintain your balance without having to rely on your opponent to hold you up.

 

[RTKDCMB]

In another thread this video was put up to show that Krav techniques are not effective for Reality Based training. The original poster seems to be an expert on YouTube clips but little else, but I digress. In this clip a guy called Moni Aizik is demonstrating a defence against a shoot takedown. Now Moni has a Judo background and is not really Krav (a simple search will give you details if you like), so this is not really a Krav technique at all despite the YouTube label.

What I would like to discuss, hopefully with guys with extensive RB backgrounds like Rich, Brian and TSD, what do you think of this technique? I won't comment beyond saying that I took it to my karate class last night and I will give it to my Krav guys tonight. I'll discuss my feelings after a few people have a chance to respond.

Here is the clip.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dNLrxp459gc

:asian:

I think that he would be better off using his other arm to do a downward elbow as it would be quicker and would allow him to use his hips to turn in the same direction as the rear foot is moving for more power.

 

[Blindside]

Because an elbow would allow you maintain your balance without having to rely on your opponent to hold you up.

And if you miss the elbow the guy is going to turn the corner and take your butt down, particularly since any half decent wrestler isn't going to do a bellyflop at your knee. Sprawl against this bellyflop takedown attempt will result in his face in the ground, then you can do all the stompy/drop elbow things when the target isn't moving as fast.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And if you miss the elbow the guy is going to turn the corner and take your butt down, particularly since any half decent wrestler isn't going to do a bellyflop at your knee. Sprawl against this bellyflop takedown attempt will result in his face in the ground, then you can do all the stompy/drop elbow things when the target isn't moving as fast.

1) Don't miss the elbow.
2) If he was a half decent wrestler then he would have done the take down better than he did in the video.
3) If you time it right he will not have time to turn the corner.
4) If he was moving as slow as he was in the video then there would be more than enough time to do the elbow.
5) If he is moving faster then it would be better to concentrate on getting out of the way first.

 

[Chris Parker]

In another thread this video was put up to show that Krav techniques are not effective for Reality Based training. The original poster seems to be an expert on YouTube clips but little else, but I digress.

Hmm… just a quick one, then… what relationship does a Krav (or, in this case, "Krav") technique have to Reality Based training…? I suppose that's for the poster on the other thread, of course… which thread would that be?

In this clip a guy called Moni Aizik is demonstrating a defence against a shoot takedown. Now Moni has a Judo background and is not really Krav (a simple search will give you details if you like), so this is not really a Krav technique at all despite the YouTube label.

Ha, yep… hence "Krav"… ha!

What I would like to discuss, hopefully with guys with extensive RB backgrounds like Rich, Brian and TSD, what do you think of this technique? I won't comment beyond saying that I took it to my karate class last night and I will give it to my Krav guys tonight. I'll discuss my feelings after a few people have a chance to respond.

Cool.

Here is the clip.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dNLrxp459gc

:asian:

Uh… okay. Yeah, not fond of that at all, honestly… far, far too many issues. I get the tactic of removing the leg as a target and striking as the opponent over-reaches… but that particular execution is rather lacking, I feel… in a number of ways… not least of all, actual "Reality".

Can someone explain to me why a simple sprawl wouldn't be a better answer than gambling on landing a dropping elbow?

It would be. However, that should not be construed as saying a sprawl is the best option…

Here is the theory.
Elbows are not allowed in competition and therefore give the advantage to the person that trains them as takedown defence.

That is in no way the theory.

Sprawl
Cross face
Over hook.

Sprawl
Cross face
Over hook.

Sprawl
Crosface
Over hook.

From there you can reality all over the place. Heck re stomp the groin until it falls off. But first.

Sprawl
Cross face
Over hook.

That's one option… but far from the only one, and not what I would suggest is the best in a number of circumstances, honestly.

Because an elbow would allow you maintain your balance without having to rely on your opponent to hold you up.

I'd accept that as part of an answer if Moni wasn't leaning over so far to get the hit...

 

[drop bear]

My judo instructor who happens to also be Israeli and so has some association with leave says nope and the just kind of looked confused.

Asked two reality based guys. And also nope not a go.

 

[drop bear]

Hmm… just a quick one, then… what relationship does a Krav (or, in this case, "Krav") technique have to Reality Based training…? I suppose that's for the poster on the other thread, of course… which thread would that be?



Ha, yep… hence "Krav"… ha!



Cool.



Uh… okay. Yeah, not fond of that at all, honestly… far, far too many issues. I get the tactic of removing the leg as a target and striking as the opponent over-reaches… but that particular execution is rather lacking, I feel… in a number of ways… not least of all, actual "Reality".



It would be. However, that should not be construed as saying a sprawl is the best option…



That is in no way the theory.



That's one option… but far from the only one, and not what I would suggest is the best in a number of circumstances, honestly.



I'd accept that as part of an answer if Moni wasn't leaning over so far to get the hit...

Trying to give a simple high percentage defence that a person could do without having to step inside a grappling gym. Yes there are other options but I picked that one for the sake of simplicity.

A really hard cross face will stand the guy up as well. Yes you will go into a fifty fifty clinch and then have to deal with that. But we wanted to avoid the ground. So avoid the ground I did.

What was your idea on an alternative?

 

[Transk53]

In the first one. If a guy is coming at you at that bodily angle, surely a knee smash to the face would be easier.

 

[drop bear]

In the first one. If a guy is coming at you at that bodily angle, surely a knee smash to the face would be easier.

Bear in mind it is a terrible takedown attempt. So in that case yes. But I would not really go for a knee as a standard. They catch your leg you wind up on your back.

Kneeing is the opposite of sprawling. So instead of getting your legs out of the way you are giving them to the guy trying to take you down.

Yes you can time it and knee a persons face off which will defend. But if you miss.......

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not a fan. It might work against the brain-dead slow-motion superman tackle from out of range that his assistant was feeding him, but then so would almost anything.

Against most untrained tackles I would probably default to changing levels, going off-line if possible, and checking the opponent's shoulders with my hands/forearms to stop his momentum before countering with whatever strikes/grappling he seemed open for. Sprawling requires a bit more commitment and I tend to save it for when it's actually necessary (a skilled grappler making a good shot).

 

[Transk53]

Bear in mind it is a terrible takedown attempt. So in that case yes. But I would not really go for a knee as a standard. They catch your leg you wind up on your back.

Kneeing is the opposite of sprawling. So instead of getting your legs out of the way you are giving them to the guy trying to take you down.

Yes you can time it and knee a persons face off which will defend. But if you miss.......

Yeah was thinking that success would mean 100 percent accuracy. Have you used sprawling, or defended like that?

 

[drop bear]

Yeah was thinking that success would mean 100 percent accuracy. Have you used sprawling, or defended like that?

The sprawling is a method I have used but I have the added issue that nobody I train with will have their takedown stuffed and then just give up. They are expecting me to sprawl and will then counter that. So it becomes a battle.

But for self defence sprawling works fine. Also pushing down on the head up on the arm and angling off. You would probably get away with just those two defences.

 

[Transk53]

The sprawling is a method I have used but I have the added issue that nobody I train with will have their takedown stuffed and then just give up. They are expecting me to sprawl and will then counter that. So it becomes a battle.

But for self defence sprawling works fine. Also pushing down on the head up on the arm and angling off. You would probably get away with just those two defences.

Once I did have to do something similar. Although in my case it would have been more rugby.

 

[drop bear]

Once I did have to do something similar. Although in my case it would have been more rugby.

The palm off. Yeah similar.