Real thanksgiving

[Tez3]

Granfire, if you hadn't noticed, the current ecomomic breakdown in Europe comes from a large part from spending other peoples money, eventually you run out of it. Thanks Prime Minister Thatcher. This is a lot off topic but I reply, socialism also murdered over 100 million people, and more, in the soviet union, china, germany, italy, japan, cambodia, and vietnam and has kept more people, as Milton Friedman would say, in crushing poverty than it has helped. Thanks.

Right, you do know that Maggie Thatcher was a Conservative? and she hasn't been around for a long time?
And over here, socialism is different from communism and the national socialism that was Hitler's pet project was actually fascism?

 

[Steve]

By undermining the historical record, attacking the institutions that created this country, there are people who would use that to change this country into more of a European socialist country. They need to undermine the constitutions seperation of powers, because they need a strong federal government, they need to destroy the rugged individualism of America's past because it is easier for the federal government to act when the citizens are dependant on it for their medicine, retirement, their wages and so on. By attacking the past they can organize the future. If they can make the people of this country doubt the goodness of it, it is easier to make them except changes to it. Before you doubt this, Rush quoted either Paul Krugman or Thomas Friedman, I'll have to look it up. This guy said that he wished for one day, that the U.S. had a government like the Chinese did so that we could pass the legislation that he thought was necassary. These are the guys who like to condemn every aspect of the founding of this country.

Earlier, I asked, "Are you saying that Thanksgiving is a liberal plot to brainwash our kids into becoming Socialists?" And you said, "No." But now... are you saying yes?

Really, I'm just trying to get you to put your agenda out there and speak plainly so I can understand what the heck you're talking about.

 

[Tez3]

Earlier, I asked, "Are you saying that Thanksgiving is a liberal plot to brainwash our kids into becoming Socialists?" And you said, "No." But now... are you saying yes?

Really, I'm just trying to get you to put your agenda out there and speak plainly so I can understand what the heck you're talking about.

Amen!

 

[granfire]

Granfire, if you hadn't noticed, the current ecomomic breakdown in Europe comes from a large part from spending other peoples money, eventually you run out of it. Thanks Prime Minister Thatcher. This is a lot off topic but I reply, socialism also murdered over 100 million people, and more, in the soviet union, china, germany, italy, japan, cambodia, and vietnam and has kept more people, as Milton Friedman would say, in crushing poverty than it has helped. Thanks.

The current break down in Europe came from people not doing their math, by promising the popular like taking over all responsibilities of a broke former communist country, guaranteed by a conservatist statesman over the objection of a socialist politician

It is also the fallout from insane, no, crazy money mismanagement in the US. Did I say insane and crazy? I meant illegal and unethica, all in the name of capitalism. Enron looks like a church picnic compared to the events that shook the world economic.

So, if you please, get some real information!

 

[Blade96]

How did a stone age, primarily hunter gathering group like the early native americans help a more advanced, agriculturally more sophisticated, group of people learn about farming? The european settlers had better technology and techniques than the indians

That's easy. The Natives knew the new world in ways that the Europeans didnt, so even though the Europeans might have had some more advanced stuff that doesn't mean they necessarily knew how to use it in a new world.

 

[elder999]

, The Truth About the First Thanksgiving..

Well, now another is behind us. Some spent it stuffing themselves. Some spent the entire day watching football. Some did both. Some went to church and offered thanks-then stuffed themselves and watched football all day. Some, like myself, offered thanks in other ways, ate a moderate feast (I’m just no good at “stuffing” myself anymore, though I do like to eat.) and maybe watched a movie. I hope you all enjoyed your holiday.

”The Truth About the First Thanksgiving”

[yt]UXoNE14U_zM[/yt]

A few things……

When the “Pilgrims” arrived on North American shores, Europeans had been making contact with the Indians of that region for close to 100 years-to devastating effect. With no resistance to smallpox, entire villages had died, or had their population severely depleted. This was what confronted these individuals, some 102, when they arrived…they couldn’t find the place near the Hudson where they were supposed to go, and wound up in what became Massachussets. There, they occasionally plundered the corn supplies of these dead villages for food-having brought no livestock with them. They spent much of that first winter on the Mayflower, and by winter’s end, they had buried 52 of their members. The remainder took up residence in an Indian village called Patuxet-the home of a man called T’isqauntum, who had been kidnapped years before, and spent those years in slavery in Spain and England, before managing to make his way home, only to find his village dead. It was he who
was called “Squanto.”


Interestingly, T’squantum probably wasn’t his real name-the words mean something akin to “anger of the spirits.” It was kind of like introducing himself as “The Wrath of God” –a bit of hyperbole.

Anyway, if the “Pilgrims” arrived in 1620, and celebrated “the first Thanksgiving” in 1621-it was this feast, attended by Massasoit, Squanto and others, that is referenced as such mostly-it was under the rules of, as you and other conservatives have chosen to call it, socialism, though it was really more of a collectivist compact. The one that the Pilgrims actually called “Thanksgiving,” that took place in 1623-after they changed the rules (as noted by Bradford)-was in thanks for the arrival of new colonists and supplies- and consisted of a day full of prayer and very little revelry and was not attended by any Indians except T’squantum, who had something of an outcast status among the Wampanoag, spoke English, and yes, famously helped the Pilgrims with their crops. Interestingly, the method of using fish with corn seed was unknown to the Indians at that time-they primarily practiced, as others said, crop rotation and soil amendment-usually with sea weed. Of course, the fish method was used in Europe, where T’squantum probably saw it used during his years of slavery.

Anyway, that “non-collectivist pro-property rights” utopia that Stossel and Limbaugh are idiotically attributing to the first Thanksgiving, isn’t the Thanksgiving they were looking for…move along, move along….:lfao:

And the Pilgrims? People too stupid to bring the right supplies, find the place they were licensed to colonize, half of whom died in the first year and that the local natives took pity upon. Not very good navigators.Not very good farmers. Not very good hunters. Not really much good at anything. :lfao: :lfao:

Well, not really took pity-more like tried to politically exploit-depleted by smallpox, and surrounded by hostile tribes like the Naragansetts and Abenaki, the Wampanoag were using the Pilgrims to control coastal trade-as they always had-and to make an ally against the powerful tribes that surrounded them.

Of course, that didn’t work out too well. By the end of King Phillip’s war in 1678, the Wampanoag were pretty well devastated, to the extent that some sought refuge by volunteering for slavery-imagine being so fearful for your life that you willingly became a slave? I often have, since that’s what my great, great, great, great, great, great grandmother, Ruth Moses did. Family legend has it that she was Metacomet’s grandchild-there’s no way of knowing this for a fact, but since Metacomet was Massassoit’s son-later to be called Prince Phillip-you can see how the period has
special interest for me.

Oh, and the Pilgrims did have a few slaves-it wasn't that their religion forbade them, but that most of them couldn't afford them.

I remember an account that I read in my freshman history class by a priest who lived with the indians. He said that they would carry the sick along with them until they lost their appetite and then they would leave them under a tree to die. He also spoke about spending the winter with the tribe where they had to remain in their tents to stay warm. The priest said you had to lay down near the side of the tent, and lift it to get clean air to breath because the smoke was so thick in the tent.

Knowing natives-and teepees (not "tents)-as I do, it’s entirely possible that the Indians in question were hostile to the father, or playing a joke. I spent a winter in my teepee when I was building my house-it’s a natural venturi, and one with a properly built fire burning will suck in fresh air and eject smoke almost automatically.

As for the housing of the technologically inferior Eastern Woodlands Indians-oh, I mean, my ancestors-the wetu-a bark insulated house made on a bent pole frame-was remarkably warm and dry. The colonists would have been used to a fire burning under an open hole in the ceiling, as the chimney was just coming into use in England during that part of the 17th century. In fact, colonist William Wood, who wrote New England’s Prospect, in1694, wrote that wetu “were warmer than our English houses” and” deny entrance to any drop of rain, though it come fierce and long.”

I guess you’re like everyone else, billcihak-we love to talk about things we know nothing about. I’m no different, and apparently neither are John Stossel and Rush Limbaugh....:lfao:

Happy Thanksgiving again, everyone!

 

[oaktree]

Maybe seeing what benefit thanksgiving is what matters.
Trying to verify the history misses the point of a moment were we can express our graditude with the ones we hold dear.

It is my humble opinion disregard it if you will.

 

[Steve]

Maybe seeing what benefit thanksgiving is what matters.
Trying to verify the history misses the point of a moment were we can express our graditude with the ones we hold dear.

It is my humble opinion disregard it if you will.

This is really what I was getting at, too.

We could do the same thing on Christmas day, talking about the Oak and Holly Kings, the pagan roots, and the multiple inconsistencies that combining a pagan holiday with a christian one brings about. But I'd rather focus on holiday cheer, mulled cider, giving and receiving gifts and seeing kids light up at the thought of Santa Claus and his reindeer.

Thanksgiving is a time for fellowship and family. Politicizing it in any way just completely misses the point. Particularly ON that day.

 

[elder999]

QUOTE=stevebjj;1340762]This is really what I was getting at, too.

We could do the same thing on Christmas day, talking about the Oak and Holly Kings, the pagan roots, and the multiple inconsistencies that combining a pagan holiday with a christian one brings about. But I'd rather focus on holiday cheer, mulled cider, giving and receiving gifts and seeing kids light up at the thought of Santa Claus and his reindeer.

Thanksgiving is a time for fellowship and family. Politicizing it in any way just completely misses the point. Particularly ON that day.[/QUOTE]


Well, of course- thoughI don't know that "fellowship and family" necessarily qualify as offering thanks.
N o matter. YourXmas analogy has some merit, but the distinct advantagee of apparent basis i in fact.

Whereas Stossel and Rush simply couldn"t get their facts right, or distiguish 1621 from 1623.

 

[Steve]

This is really what I was getting at, too.

We could do the same thing on Christmas day, talking about the Oak and Holly Kings, the pagan roots, and the multiple inconsistencies that combining a pagan holiday with a christian one brings about. But I'd rather focus on holiday cheer, mulled cider, giving and receiving gifts and seeing kids light up at the thought of Santa Claus and his reindeer.

Thanksgiving is a time for fellowship and family. Politicizing it in any way just completely misses the point. Particularly ON that day.

Well, of course- thoughI don't know that "fellowship and family" necessarily qualify as offering thanks.
N o matter. YourXmas analogy has some merit, but the distinct advantagee of apparent basis i in fact.

Whereas Stossel and Rush simply couldn"t get their facts right, or distiguish 1621 from 1623.

Giving thanks, sure. What I was talking about is that holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas are about getting together.

 

[granfire]

Giving thanks, sure. What I was talking about is that holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas are about getting together.

Sometimes they are about giving thanks that they are over

 

[billc]

Yeah, communal efforts rarely succeed and more often than not deliver what they experienced in the early colonies. If you watched Stossel's show, "the tragedy of the commons" you will have seen several more ways that the government screws things up. I'm curious, how does the fact that the primitive shelters kept out water disprove anything I pointed out. Do you still live in the teepee? Probably not. Did shelters that kept out water prove a definitive advantage over a written language, superior metal working skills, gunpowder, the wheel...

 

[granfire]

Yeah, communal efforts rarely succeed and more often than not deliver what they experienced in the early colonies. If you watched Stossel's show, "the tragedy of the commons" you will have seen several more ways that the government screws things up. I'm curious, how does the fact that the primitive shelters kept out water disprove anything I pointed out. Do you still live in the teepee? Probably not. Did shelters that kept out water prove a definitive advantage over a written language, superior metal working skills, gunpowder, the wheel...

Are you trying to make a case for the extermination of the natives?

The wheel does not help you any if you have no roads to move it on. Incase you missed it, the Inka empire thrived well for a long time without a single cart. not to mention superior stone masonry skills.

You under the illusion that only what Europe brought forth is good. This is the mind set that brought us the Trail of Tears and Wounded Knee, along with the tragedy that is the Dark Continent.
Somewhere in this arrogance fits the Chinese opium war...

I have my doubts that modern houses are so superior over what you call primitive shelters. And let's face it, many places city ordinance - also a treasure from the Old World stands between you and a Tee-Pee. Or CPS...

Superior metal working skill does not help you when you have no ore to smelt. And written language is overrated. Most people can't read for comprehension...

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, communal efforts rarely succeed and more often than not deliver what they experienced in the early colonies. If you watched Stossel's show, "the tragedy of the commons" you will have seen several more ways that the government screws things up. I'm curious, how does the fact that the primitive shelters kept out water disprove anything I pointed out. Do you still live in the teepee? Probably not. Did shelters that kept out water prove a definitive advantage over a written language, superior metal working skills, gunpowder, the wheel...

How do you know communal efforts rarely succeed? Have you ever lived in a small village anywhere in the world? These communal efforts work fine.

I still don't understand what you are getting at, you say communal efforts don't work then say governments screw things up.

You are missing a big point and that's that the people native to the land they are in will always have the advantage over incomers. The invention of the wheel is only great in places where you can run a wheel, not so good on mountains,in thick forests, snow or water logged land. There's no point in having a wheel if you don't need one. Gunpowder - if what you have works well, is easy to make and use why do you need gunpowder? Same with metal working, if it's not broke don't fix it. Why would you need a written langauge if you have a fine oral tradition?

It's a mistake to judge people by the possessions you think they should have rather that what they think they should have. I take it you think that South American Indian tribes are primitive because they don't eat at Mc Donalds? However could you survive in the Amazon rain forest without modern day gadgets and gizmos? If they all broke down how long would you last? could you catch your food, clothe yourself, heal yourself, shelter and live comfortable all on your own? I doubt it but I bet they can so who's the sophisicated ones now?

 

[Empty Hands]

How do you know communal efforts rarely succeed? Have you ever lived in a small village anywhere in the world? These communal efforts work fine.

But, but, but, SOCIALISM!!!

 

[granfire]

But, but, but, SOCIALISM!!!

yeah, a disgusting concept: doing something to benefit your fellow man without monetary compensation...
makes me want to vomit....

 

[billc]

I always wonder why people think socialism is so great. Yeah, it claims to "help your fellow man," but over a 100million dead people might disagree. The bankruptcy of all the socialist nations of Europe would be another clue to its ineffectiveness. As I think Margaret Thatcher said, " The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money." And as you saw on the Stossle show, the government run parks, the indian reservations the depletion of the Buffalo herds, all came from relying on someone else "helping their fellow man," as opposed to following your own dreams and trying to do the best for yourself and your family. Walter Williams was on another Stossle special back when he was on ABC. Williams pointed out that the reason someone in New York had a nice steak to eat wasn't because the cattle rancher cared any more for the New Yorker than anyone else. that rancher was taking care of their own family, and the great by product was that the New Yorker had a great steak. It is that hidden hand thing from Adam Smith. This lesson was started way back in the colonial days as you can read from Bradford's writings.

 

[granfire]

I always wonder why people think socialism is so great. Yeah, it claims to "help your fellow man," but over a 100million dead people might disagree. The bankruptcy of all the socialist nations of Europe would be another clue to its ineffectiveness. As I think Margaret Thatcher said, " The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money." And as you saw on the Stossle show, the government run parks, the indian reservations the depletion of the Buffalo herds, all came from relying on someone else "helping their fellow man," as opposed to following your own dreams and trying to do the best for yourself and your family. Walter Williams was on another Stossle special back when he was on ABC. Williams pointed out that the reason someone in New York had a nice steak to eat wasn't because the cattle rancher cared any more for the New Yorker than anyone else. that rancher was taking care of their own family, and the great by product was that the New Yorker had a great steak. It is that hidden hand thing from Adam Smith. This lesson was started way back in the colonial days as you can read from Bradford's writings.

You are talking communism.

However, you are all over the place, armed with just enough Fox polemic to be dangerous.

When you have a group, a small group of people with limited resources you can't succeed with anything but communism. Such is life. The phrase that covers that is "united we stand"

 

[aedrasteia]

Bill

"The first example of socialisms defeat is finally getting a hearing." - from OP
it was 1621... there is no "socialism". No communism. No liberals or anything like that. Nothing similar to the groups criticized by the folks you have cited. And there won't be for nearly 300+ years. This group of religious Separatists, shopkeepers and ordinary people are thousands of miles from home, supplies, support or influences. There aren't any groups remotely similar in England or the continent in the late 1500s or early 16oos. Or at least you didn't mention that or i missed it and it wasn't part of the conservative posts I read or Stossels' report unless I missed something. Where do you think this "socialism" came from?

thanks, A

 

[CanuckMA]

I always wonder why people think socialism is so great.

Have a look North. Canada is a Socialist country. We fared a damn sight better during this last recession. Wasn't as long or deep. One of the big factor? Government regulation of our banking sector.