Real thanksgiving

[granfire]

I never understood what people meant when they said Nazis were far right and communists were far left. I got the left part but not the far right part. I did some looking into it and found that if you are far right, you like limited government.

where did you get that idea?

A far right nut job would be someone who goes and lives on a mountain to avoid having to deal with the federal authorities.

lol?

The far left, however, loves big all controlling governments that control every last detail of their citizens lives. That is why the Nazis, communists, socialists, and fascists are all really the same thing.

I am sure the communists that died in Nazi camps will be overjoyed to hear that.

They all worked and work for the largest government possible often to either soul draining or life stealing effect.

soul and life draining?

It is like ice cream, you have strawberry ice cream and chocolate and vanilla, but they are all flavors of ice cream.

what?

Nazis, communists, fascists, socialists are all big government control ideologies.

Next thing you try to tell me that tomatoes, apples, bananas and avocados are all the same, after all you do buy them in the same aisle at the store...

Besides, I believe it was Lenin who came up with the term fascist to distinguish his international socialism from the socialists in Italy and Germany.

I think Lenin was long dead by the rise of Fascism.

And let's not forget WW2 Japan, they were socialists as well.

Japan?! Really?!

Also, Hitler and Mussolini were both fans of Marx, Hitler just believed in it for Germans.

again, read the book. I think you can get it for e-reader...in case you have no idea how this block of paper works...

Also, the saying in germany at the time when the marxists were helping the early Adolf was first the brown shirts, then the red shirts. Unfortunately for the communists version in germany, hitler wanted his guys in charge, that is why he arrested all the old time commies.

Now where did you get that poop?

Again, you are all over the map.

A little history lesson for you:
Socialism was born out of the industrial revolution of the mid 19th century. For the historically challened, that translates to the 1800s, but midway through, somewhat on the same time line as the US Civil war, or, as we Southeners call it "The War between the States"
Reason: Rich people, like the Vanderbilds, and Carnegies own the companies for which the poor people worked. many times 7 days a week, 12 or 14 hours a day. The pay was minimal, food scarce. One man could be replaced by something like 5 women for a fraction of the pay, a woman by about 15 children for even less money. (thus the need for many children) Conditions were poor or dangerous, why bother, the workforce is replacable.

In the late 1800s German Prime Minister Otto von Bismark introduced social laws to curb the growing influence of the socialist movements in the nation. because the majority of the population was poor and restless...
back in those days communism was actually a good sounding idea. <GASP> I know.

Fast forward: The eve of WWI. (it started in 1914, over a dispute between Austria and Serbia, go figure) Germany thought it a wise move to free and introduce exiled Lenin through the back door into Russia. No major political reason (and if they had an idea of what they unleashed, I am sure they would have rather taken the beating) to break the two front war they were entangled with. That was 1917.
Lenin overthrew the Czar, then the Duma as the moderate communist changes didn't go far enough for him...say hello to the Bolshevic.

Now, where am I, ah, right, Post war Europe: The left, the socialists (damn them for wanting food and housing, ungrateful bastards) were hunted down, sentenced to long and hard prison terms. (Did you research Rosa Luxemburg? There is a film out about her, in case you prefer the cliff note version) the right, the conservatives, equally unruly got mere slaps on the wrists, a version of boys will be boys. Our all time favorite poster boy Adolf is a prime example.

Now, a little explanation about left and right...the terms derive from where the party blocks were seated, seen from the president of the congregation. Not a lot of sinister stuff, just chairs.


Now, I am sure I can dig up one of the many speeches were dear old Adolf was raving about the evils of the bolshevistic capitalist jews. And when you pick that phrase appart one should scratch his head, since they just don't fit together by sheer definition of the words.

Now, I am really REALLY interested were you get the notion, the idea that Hitler and Mousolini liked Marx and Engels?

 

[Tez3]

Granfire, you have far more patience than I!

 

[granfire]

Granfire, you have far more patience than I!

I am deceptive that way!

 

[Omar B]

Why bother? He obviously knows little history, throws around words he doesn't know the meaning of (communal living and socialism are not the same or even analogous), grammar, spelling, punctuation and paragraphs (learn to separate ideas, geeze) all tell me this kid is just that a kid. Not a college student like he claims, but maybe a middle schooler who listens to Rush and watches Stossel.

 

[Tez3]

Why bother? He obviously knows little history, throws around words he doesn't know the meaning of (communal living and socialism are not the same or even analogous), grammar, spelling, punctuation and paragraphs (learn to separate ideas, geeze) all tell me this kid is just that a kid. Not a college student like he claims, but maybe a middle schooler who listens to Rush and watches Stossel.

I don't even know who they are lol!

 

[billc]

Guys, you are being fooled by the superficial differences. The nazis, communists, italian fascists, the japanese empire, all wanted to create paradise on earth. The nazis wanted a racial pure society, the commies wanted true communism, from each...to each, and so on. The thing that makes them all the same is that they used large central governments with no checks, no balances, no regard for the individual, in order to create their version of heaven on earth. Kenjutsu is a sword art that uses a long sword with a long handle, the phillipine arts use shorter swords with shorter handles, but they are both sword arts. Try not to get lost in the superficial aspects of the different types of socialist.
Try some of my sources: Friedrich van Hayek, "the road to serfdom," he explains how socialism always allows the worst types of people to rise to the top. R. J. Rummel, "Death by Government," goes through the various mass murders committed by governments. " Liberal Fascism," by Johah Goldberg, chronicles Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt and the other socialists of the 1930's and 40's. "The Black Book of Communism," I don't remember the authors of this book, it was written by french socialists. "Hollywood Party," how the communists infiltrated Hollywood, especially its trade unions and so on. On youtube, check out Milton Friedman when he took on Phil Donahue or read anything by Milton Friedman.
Socialism is supposed to be the middle step to true communism. The government siezes control of the means of production until the last stage, true communism is achieved where there is no government.
Granfire, you obviously missed a lot in your little history lesson, this is obviously not the forum for an in depth analysis, that is why I guide people to other sources, some quick hitting like Rush, Mark Levine, Bighollywood.com or Breitbart.com, and longer research sources like the books I recommend. It is up to interested parties to go farther and look deeper.

The best definition of a communist comes from Ann Coulter, she says, "a communist is a socialist who really means it."

Canuckma, the reason you don't have to do violence or spend a lot of money on your millitary is that you live next to us. We do a lot of the heavy lifting.

 

[CanuckMA]

Just, wow.

 

[Tez3]

Guys, you are being fooled by the superficial differences.

Of course we are and you are the only one who knows the truth.




The nazis, communists, italian fascists, the japanese empire, all wanted to create paradise on earth. The nazis wanted a racial pure society, the commies wanted true communism, from each...to each, and so on. The thing that makes them all the same is that they used large central governments with no checks, no balances, no regard for the individual, in order to create their version of heaven on earth. Kenjutsu is a sword art that uses a long sword with a long handle, the phillipine arts use shorter swords with shorter handles, but they are both sword arts. Try not to get lost in the superficial aspects of the different types of socialist.

Is this a reds under the beds warning?

Try some of my sources: Friedrich van Hayek, "the road to serfdom," he explains how socialism always allows the worst types of people to rise to the top. R. J. Rummel, "Death by Government," goes through the various mass murders committed by governments. " Liberal Fascism," by Johah Goldberg, chronicles Hitler, Mussolini, Roosevelt and the other socialists of the 1930's and 40's. "The Black Book of Communism," I don't remember the authors of this book, it was written by french socialists. "Hollywood Party," how the communists infiltrated Hollywood, especially its trade unions and so on. On youtube, check out Milton Friedman when he took on Phil Donahue or read anything by Milton Friedman.
Socialism is supposed to be the middle step to true communism. The government siezes control of the means of production until the last stage, true communism is achieved where there is no government.
Granfire, you obviously missed a lot in your little history lesson, this is obviously not the forum for an in depth analysis, that is why I guide people to other sources, some quick hitting like Rush, Mark Levine, Bighollywood.com or Breitbart.com, and longer research sources like the books I recommend. It is up to interested parties to go farther and look deeper.

Try us.

But with punctuation, spelling and paragraphs please.

 

[granfire]

I bet he has a socialist lurking in his bathroom, too...

 

[granfire]

I don't even know who they are lol!

You didn't miss much, as the excerpts show

 

[Steve]

I never understood what people meant when they said Nazis were far right and communists were far left. I got the left part but not the far right part. I did some looking into it and found that if you are far right, you like limited government. A far right nut job would be someone who goes and lives on a mountain to avoid having to deal with the federal authorities.

Where did you look?

 

[granfire]

Where did you look?

Fox

 

[Omar B]

The best definition of a communist comes from Ann Coulter, she says, "a communist is a socialist who really means it."

That's not a definition by any stretch of the word since within the statement you are not told what either are. What you have there is a cute little catch phrase coined by the woman who said 9/11 widows loved attention. She's good at saying things that appeals to the LCD.

 

[aedrasteia]

Guys, you are being fooled by the superficial differences. The nazis, communists, italian fascists, the japanese empire, all wanted to create paradise on earth. The nazis wanted a racial pure society, the commies wanted true communism, from each...to each, and so on. The thing that makes them all the same is that they used large central governments with no checks, no balances, no regard for the individual.. Socialism is supposed to be the middle step to true communism. The government siezes control of the means of production until the last stage, true communism is achieved where there is no government.

Bill
thanks. I do understand your point, i think.

But in your OP, you are specific regarding 1621, Thanksgiving and the 'socialism' of these first English, Separatist colonists.
It is 1621. There aren't any nazis, communists, fascists, japanese etc. These are all 20th century movements and/or ideologies. there is no 'government' to seize anything in Plimoth.

where does this 1621 'socialism' come from? As far as I can find in the comments by Stossell, Limbaugh and the other conservative writers and blogs, this assertion is just made without any answer to the question. It's hundreds of years into their future before anything remotely resembling 'socialism' develops.

The commentators made the assertion about this 'socialism' and its 'defeat' and you endorse their perspective. that's really OK.

But can you (or they) source it historically ??

I'm digging around too. My sources include Samuel Eliot Morrison, editor of the 1952 edition of William Bradfords work and Nathan Philbrick, winner of the National Book Award and author of last year's Mayflower, a deeply researched and riveting account of this history. Also Richard Slotkin, Regeneration through Violence: the Myth of the American Frontier 1600-1860 (with emphasis on the earliest writings from America by English colonists). All three of these writers are scrupulous about using primary sources and clearly separating factual, sourced assertions from legitimate interpretation - thats why they are excellent historians.

What is the origin of the 'socialism' you have identified and named? Bradford's description is not in dispute here, though he cannot use that descriptor, because it did not exist (nor did the concept).

What's the origin (historically and conceptually)??

many thanks, A

 

[Omar B]

I think the socialism comes from his not understanding that many small tribes didn't have a concept of ownership and had everything from food to their own children in kind. Real communal living.

Like the Arawak Indians from Jamaica that welcomed Columbus and his people, fed them, gave them homes in their village, only to be completely wiped out.

 

[Blade96]

Good grief. Billcihak, your history.......

 

[Empty Hands]

Good grief. Billcihak, your history.......

But he said he went to many sources like breitbart.com, Rush and Mark Levin! I'm just surprised he also didn't list that well known historian and academic expert Glenn Beck. Must have been a simple oversight.

 

[billc]

I'm not a big watcher of Glen Beck but he does some great work. I do catch bits of his radio show now and then. He mentioned Rahm Emanuels brother today, is it Zeke Emanuel, one of obamas advisors on healthcare. Beck brought up emanuels thoughts on health care. If you are age 0-3 the society shouldn't expend a lot of resources on you, the same if you are over 50. Here is a Beck check for Beck bashers. Go find what Rahm's brother has actually said about health care in the U.S. and tell me, did Beck make it up?

 

[Tez3]

I'm not a big watcher of Glen Beck but he does some great work. I do catch bits of his radio show now and then. He mentioned Rahm Emanuels brother today, is it Zeke Emanuel, one of obamas advisors on healthcare. Beck brought up emanuels thoughts on health care. If you are age 0-3 the society shouldn't expend a lot of resources on you, the same if you are over 50. Here is a Beck check for Beck bashers. Go find what Rahm's brother has actually said about health care in the U.S. and tell me, did Beck make it up?

:-offtopic

 

[Empty Hands]

:-offtopic

The actual topic is an argument of such ignorance and breathless stupidity that nearly anything else we could talk about would be an improvement.