Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Archangel M, Jul 23, 2009.
the cops in NO WAY screwed up.
The cop did his job and made a legal arrest. Gates behaved like a royal ******* and Obama injected a racial element into a situation where there was none....yep nothing wrong with that:rofl:
As soon as they did, Gates started screaming about being a black man in America
No, Gates argued, talked about the Cop's mom.
Had Gates calmly showed his ID when the cops showed up, there would have been NO problems. Instead, Gates chose to violate the rule:
"Don't Start Nothing. Won't be nothing"
But if you read the report, and believe it, that is exactly what he did. After ID'ing him, he left. It was only after Gates left the inside of his home and continued yelling did Crowley then take him to jail, again, after warning him to stop.
So I am still not understanding how Crowley contributed to this. Tell me, based on Gates (even self-admitted) behavior, do you believe that this wouldn't have gone up the chain if Crowley had not arrested him. I still think we would be talking about this.
You're wrong. The prosecutors declined to press charges. That is a completely different scenario to that which you posit. After almost ten years of being a cop, I can tell you that sometimes there is no rhyme or reason to why the do or do not prosecute. Usually, it consists of what they think they can win, not whether it's right to prosecute.
And again, how do you know why the cops arrested him. You have no idea. The man was breaking the laws of the State of Massechusetts. Uh, you get over it.
jks, that's very true. Gates isn't a child, however, the relationship is the same. Crowley is in a position of authority over Gates, and presumably has the training, experience and wisdom (not to mention responsibility) to handle the situation well and not lose control. This relationship is much the same as a parent and a child. When a child misbehaves, do you blame the child or the parent? Often, the parent is to blame.
To your second point, there are a lot of ways to handle a situation. The overriding principle I learned and always try to keep in mind is to not allow the situation to escalate so that the punishment is out of proportion to the situation. In other words, you don't ground a kid for two weeks because he doesn't want to go to bed. In the same vein, you don't arrest a guy for being angry with you because you accused him of being a burglar in his own home, even if he's being a jackass.
I will try to get back and read/respond a little more carefully to the rest of the thread, but I can't promise anything. It's crazy hot here and my house has no AC. So, for the last few days, it's been a low of about 90F in my house at night... up around 105F during the day. Three dogs and three kids to keep cool has been keeping me up most of the night, so I may not make much sense.
But, really quickly, yorkshirelad, are you comparing Gates to a guy experiencing a psychotic episode in your hometown?
And archangel, as I've said before, I'm focusing more on Crowley only because so many here want to give him a free pass. I'm not suggesting that he be fired or anything like that. I'm suggesting that he is not without blame and that this situation was as much a product of his actions as of Gates.
I don't think any of us have given Sgt. Crowley a "free pass." Most of us who are cops have said that, though we weren't there and can't speak with certainty, making an arrest may not have been the best course. But... I reread the reports. Sgt. Crowley tried to leave, and was followed. He warned Dr. Gates twice. Dr. Gates was yelling to the crowd, causing a public disturbance. Efforts to calm him failed. He got arrested. Sgt. Crowley had the legal authority to be there, he had the legal justification (probable cause) to make the arrest, and he tried to calm the situation. Sgt. Crowley neither created nor added to the situation; Dr. Gates's outrageous response to the sergeant's official presence inflamed it and took a routine encounter that should have lasted all of 3 minutes to an arrest.
The situation is comparable Steve. This is how I see it, take our loveable psycho Fred and his "evolution, devolution" rant and transport him from the quiet town of Berwick in Elmet to Leeds city centre and he would not get a second look. People would walk by him all day and not even glance in his direction. No cop would even consider arresting him for diturbing the peace. The situation is different in Berwick in Elmet however. The village is extremely quiet, suburban and it's inhabitants upper middle class. Any kind of distruption which would wake one up from an afternoon nap would be a disturbance of the peace. Relativity in action.
Now Gates goes off on a rant for all the world to hear. He said some things that were offensive and caused a stir, and said them loud and aggressively. I have never been to Boston, but I would hazard a guess that where Gates lives is a community of middle class academics, who usually behave in a professional manner. In other words, he doesn't live in a white dogshit infested council estate full of chavs. So you have to put Gates' actions into the context of where he lives.
Another thing to consider is both Gates' and Crowley's past. Crowley has an unblemished record as a cop and teaches race relations. How do you know this, my chubby little limey friend, I hear you ask? Well, if Crowley had so much of an argument with his mother about which trousers he was going to where for Sunday mass, as an eight year old, we would have heard about it on the network news. Gates' however is known as a black activist who has sympathies with the hateful separatist group The Nation of Islam. He is also known to have a hot temper and he's the one who made a racial issue out of this bollixology.
As a result of all the above info, I deduce that Crowley went to the Gates' residence (as a result of a 9/11 call) in order to prevent a possible break in/burglary. Effectively putting his own life on the line to seure Gates' property, as all LEOs would do. Gates was pissed already at having to break in to his own home. He had had a long journey and was tired, is known to have a temper in the best of times and adding to all the above was then faced with a WHITE cop. All this added together created a temper tantrum that ultimately lead to his arrest.
The professor is, however an arrogant elitist, who sees his position of authority at the university and his friendship with POTUS as an excuse to behave like a pre-pubescent princess, without suffering the consequences that the rest of the great unwashed (us) would have to suffer, if we had placed ourselves in similar circumstances.
Well today is the day. Obama's attempt at damage limitation. Corwley, Gates and Obama, will have a beer and hash this out like adults. The professor and Obama will, politely try to coherse the good Sgt to admit that he was wrong, so that they can all sing cumbaya together. Well Crowley represents the nation's LEOs in this meeting and I for one hopes that he, respectfully tells the both of them to stick it where the sun don't shine.
I hope Crowley is wise enough to bring a lawyer and union rep. with him....
No, they're gonna loosen their ties, put their feet up on the couches in the 'oval office', drink a couple of cold ones and shoot the **** for an hour or so. Just like old friends.....Well that's what we're all expected to believe anyway.
I'll save you a wasted hour in front of the TV and tell you how it's gonna go:
Gates/Obama will ask Crowley to apologize, and Crowley won't do it because he shouldn't have to apologize for doing his job. Riots ensue.
i wouldnt be shocked if the president, or his staff rather, threaten the cop into apologizing.
There will be no "threats," only gentle persuasion, and a change will come over Sgt. Crowley. He'll publicly state that he's learned a valuable lesson, that he didn't realize what it was like to be a black man in America, and that he has a new understanding-and how he hopes he can spread that understanding, especially among police, to affect positive change in America......kumbaya, kumbaya, kumbaya.... :lfao:
now THATS change i can believe in
Ya better believe it. Mark my words, 'cause I'm pullin' a Nostradamus, here. That's just how it will go down. Not gonna say the guy will apologize, but he's already an Obama supporter-he'll have no problem making a statement like that for "the good of the country," and, of course, subsequently making a bunch of people feel bad, and question their own judgement....bwahaha haha, and all that. :lfao:.
Hilarious! If he comes forward and says, "No I didn't apologize, even with their pressure," you're gonna say 'Damn straight'. But if he does apologize you just gave a 'prediction' to undermine any possible legitimacy to him changing his mind or even coming to an understanding with Gates. Nice trick. I don't think Crowley or Gates is the problem. It's their my-guy-can-do-no-wrong supporters.
no, pretty much Gates is the problem
WTOP is reporting on the outcome of the get-together:
He's got a very good point.123
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