Questions for those who started their own system/ style

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by chrissyp, Oct 18, 2018.

  1. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    On the bolded statement, I think you're just throwing balm at the posters who doubt TMA, have had trouble making it work FOR THEM. Being ambassadorial.

    You remind of certain TMA instructors I've run into who always claim there's alway something I'm not doing the way they want. I went to a local Isshin Ryu club. The Head Master was nigh on eighty. Now Okinawan karate is a superior karate style in certain ways to my more Japanese link-ed karate style. So I kind of expected his arrogance when I got it. I really didn't like Isshin Ryu at all. It was too stylized with complexity, and I understand the founder created the style around WW II to make karate (supposedly) more effective at fighting.

    Anyway, he was talking down my style and then interrupted to point out a a young woman, a new student relatively. Oh how poor her technique was, really in trouble. I thought her technique was good for the number of months sher had been there, and she was practicing very diligently. That really soured me on his mentor-ship. Incidentally when we were discussing TMA styles, he said that the kung fu practitioners made the best fighters he had ever witnessed. Which silently I concurred.

    Later in another class, he asked me if I would like to spar. I didn't come in talking about any rank. I'm sure I came across exactly like I do to the majority here. So by his voice, he didn't think I was accomplished at all. To make a long story short, I refused. Because sparring how's it's conventionally trained is most often stupid.

    For one, they had a kickboxer there who was fairly new, and he was beating up all the students up to black-belts, where there was three assistant instructors. Two of the instructors were 2nd degree. The one kinda ran the class and didn't spar. He didn't care for me at all. The other was a fighter. That fighter in another class was matched against the newbie who sucker punched me out of the blue when we standing observing the class. The match didn't get very far because they believed in moderate contact. The 2nd degree - fighter dropped the newbie (all anxious to show his athletic talent) with a spinning back kick. The newbie rolled around on the floor in pain for some time. At that I left. Another reason I left was I knew with my 'inferior' Japanese karate style, I could beat him.

    I did have one final meeting with the 3rd black-belt instructor, a middle aged man. He toyed the egregious kick-boxer around like a dog. Your know how those fighter types are... they are just going to outfight you (not). We had maybe two conversations about 20 minutes each. He was very eager for me to join, and respected very much my approach. He was the bona fide instructor among them all. Should I cross train, it wouldn't be Isshin Ryu.

    I understand your well accomplished and hold high achievement in TMA. However, I respectfully disagree. And you're not going to prevail on the issue by claiming mysticism. That is an excuse for ignorance. Mysticism is a formless, shapeless label that can have myriad meaning and applications across & among a plethora of circumstances. No intelligent / scientific argument can be made in an environment of mysticism. Mysticism makes the perfect foil for rhetoric.

    This is where on of the common principles of TMA sheds so much light and I'll post a video. Shotokan karate, IMO is on the bottom end of the ladder of sophistication in TMA. The kung fu's as a group are near or approach the top. They (these styles) for practical argument sake, couldn't be farther from each other in their level of sophistication and ultimate overall martial strength or power. Yet the JKA and the serious kung fu instructors here where I live, both focus on training the TMA model. The TMA model is on an underlying basis the same, they both develop the human potential in all the key areas. It's training that model properly, whether it's Shotokan and the Japanese karates, or the Chinese kung fu's that make the difference. And mysticism has nothing to do with it. It's in the TMA manual's, it's in the curriculum itself what defines TMA and how it works.

    Here's my Shotokan / JKA training video.
    Training at JKA (Japan Karate Association) Honbu Dojo

    53,267 views
    [​IMG]
    Ryan Hayashi
    Published on Sep 21, 2014

    The female instructor early on is Miki NAKAMACHI. She is a JKA kata champion. Frankly, I don't think of her kata as championship kata. It's also Shotokan which I don't like the style. It's also hard to tell from a computer screen sometimes.

    I could also take issue with certain aspects of the JKA training regimen depicted in the video. The answer to your cautions is what is wrong with Shotokan and what is wrong with Miki's kata let's say, is not the point. The TMA empirically model speaking, contains all the principles to develop martial skill way above what boxing, wrestling, and the Muay Thai we see today anyway, BJJ, etc. The challenge is to gain the accurate insights and then train those insights in a highly disciplined manner.

    And that is precisely what the JKA practitioners are doing, Miki is instructing, in that JKA video. When done properly, Shotokan karate will approach or reach the lower level kung fu's and Okinawan kempos in effect. That what the serious kung fu practitioners and instructors in my locale are doing. That's my personal view. And who in general needs more than that? This is necessarily a small percentage who achieve this level of martial skill, because of the understanding & investment involved.

    OTOH, I have no doubt the far majority of commercial MMA fighters would find it a very hard day challenging the JKA seniors @ the HQ. I wouldn't dream of it for a number of reasons, mainly in that it's a waste of time & stupid TMA. Miki's kata is the top way to train, in principle.:bookworm:
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
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  2. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    So what does it mean that you're so focused on what people you are talking to?
     
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  3. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    I hear some slight accuracies in very small parts of what you are saying, but man, you are pathological.
     
  4. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    When I joined this forum, I tried to be thoughtful of others and provide a good bio on my profile. The relevant information is there for anyone to see. I checked yours and there is nothing. Nothing. How about you enlighten us all and provide your apparently very comprehensive background. Help us all get on the same playing field so we can digest the wellspring of information you provide.
     
  5. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    You'd be justified in your position, if I were applying for a job with you. But that presumes I'd want to work for you, which I don't.
     
  6. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    When I came to my current dojo, all my past rank and belts went out the window. They have that tradition that everyone with the org. begins as a white belt. Fine with me.

    The counterpoint is the professional respects other's accomplishments of that person. Which they didn't really recognize. And so many made fools out of themselves, as indicated is some of the posts I've recounted.

    However, the doubters and arrogant, most came around pretty quickly. There's always those sore losers. Like I said, the instructors now come to me for advice. Can't help with much of that since it's related to the org. politics and instructor / student & marketing issues. All that kind of business issues that those running the dojo must handle beyond the art.

    I'm there as an informal resource for those who want to gain a better understanding of the curriculum.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
  7. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    Well, your answer is cute. I wondered what you'd do if I called your "mysticism" trump card. And extensive resume on paper doesn't a master make.

    As I recounted, there is always the desire to be the top dog. At the Isshin Ryu club, the eighty year old 6th degree was more interested in preserving his past glory, evident by his dumping on the new students. The 2nd degree who ran the class was all involved in his instructor-ship. The newbie who pulled the sucker punch stunt on me, was all eager to be the next Bruce Lee. The 2nd degree black-belt fighter couldn't resist dropping the newbie with that power spinning back kick.

    I didn't participate because I'm not a dog.
     
  8. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    I've got more than a decade of training the TMA, primarily a fairly basic karate style adapted largely from Shotokan karate. Many thousands of hours of training.

    Two TMA I attend free @ my current dojo I was awarded a scholarship to train to black-belt free. My 1st TMA school shut down and reopened under the head instructor. I'm free to come there to train any time without charge.

    I've also defeated every single karate instructor I have ever sparred. But of course, those instructors had a false idea of how skilled they were. There's other karate instructors and TMA instructors around town I know I couldn't defeat. The most frequent style of those being the kung fu instructors.

    That's my "blog" resume.
     
  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    A whole decade????

    Wow.
     
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  10. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, i have twice the training time, but i actually hadnt asked for your resume at all. That was some other people. Id also much rather spar with the instructors that would whoop my ***, then with the ones i know i can beat. Its nice to say, but doesnt improve my skill at all
     
  11. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    image.jpg
     
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  12. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Oh y
    Yea sure, I'm certain you are underqualified. Your name is half right. You certainly are a noob.
     
  13. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    Silly, they (the instructors) challenged me. You're in the who can I beat up mindset / camp. The only thing one learns from sparring with higher-skilled instructors is what you should have know to begin with. You aren't good enough.

    Reminds me of the hard sparring pair during my intro stint @ the Isshin ryu school. The Newbie who gets his clock cleaned (he knew nothing when he thought he could try something on a 2nd degree black-belt who prizes fighting); and that 2nd Degree Fighter who can't resist the kill shot against the self-puffed newbie.

    You've trained twice as long yet haven't progressed in understanding the objectives of training compared to where I was in a month.

    Your's it the mindset of the boxer (I think that was in your list). Sparring can produce good, even higher level skills. This is quite evident in boxing progress. Not @ the level of traditional karate though.
     
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  14. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    Yeah, well since this is an internet blog, I only know you can type in intelligent sounding stuff; however, the giveaway is the slant of self made superior you. Just like the eighty-something Isshin Ryu 6th degree holding onto past glories.

    Top dog-itis.:shifty:
     
  15. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    This is well written with wrong conclusion. It proposes an absolute without you providing your definition, description of TMA. What you proclaim is that there is quote- big chunks missing - then like all typical MMA proponents, conveniently drop the ball.

    Here's a buzzword; "evolution." Meaning I know better than the collective wisdom of the let's say karate masters. So of course, "fools errand" makes the perfect case - out of nothing.

    Your next paragraph talks about the scoring on the whole of each contestants skills then TMA would prevail. Huh? Traditional karate principles extend universally. The skills are universal, and readily transferable.

    I've said this multiple times already, we are communicating on an internet blog... It's not like hands on practice or training. Oh, back to you're donning the superior one mantle ) "strange," "misguided."

    I've never encountered anything like your closing line. And we have some super egos heading up our org. Your statement about the how/why of bashing, I had it right, you are squarely in beat the other guy up camp. With martial health in mind. no less. Whatever that means & let's toss in "evolution" again.

    My model ain't your model.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  16. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    Speaking of noobs, here's your elite (marketing to your MMA minded, pays the bill students) MMA competitors, top ranked in the UFC.
    Was Khabib Rocked Against Michael Johnson? Joe Rogan Exposed
    136,210 views

    [​IMG]
    FR MMA 2

    Published on Apr 12, 2018

    Yeah, the narrative on martial art training models isn't getting through. True Champion Wrestling's always gonna win over wild hay makers. MMA's constantly evolving alright, from not knowing how to fight to - something or other.:hungover:

    What MMA the business does, is make tons of money. Time for you to cash in, eh?
     
  17. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Entirely untrue, in any sport or event. One of the best ways to improve in something is to compete against those who are better than you. This has been factually proven, and was actually one of the first social psychology studies done.

    Or maybe we have different objectives? If you want, you can share yours, I can share mine and we can compare.
     
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  18. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Forgot to add two things to my original reply...1: The places you've trained at seem F'ed up. Instructors challenging students, people actively trying to hurt new students, or show their superiority. None of the places I've trained at do anything like that, and honestly if I went to a school and saw what you've described going on, I would walk out.
    2: I actually don't care in the slightest who I can beat up. I'm not out to challenge anyone or prove myself better...I had enough of that in my teens. Now for me it's about self-improvement (and teaching beginners, I've found lately that I get an odd joy out of that), but like I said in my last reply, competition has been proven, in any field, sport or otherwise, to help improve oneself.
     
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  19. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    Well, I qualified my stance to differentiate the difference between sport methods, what you propose; and the traditional martial art method. You cite factually proven. I can cite TAM'rs who have different experience, including myself.

    So you say some "first" social psychology studies 'factually" proves so. I guess a social psychologist is then who you should hang on the wall of your dojo.o_O:wideyed: Here's a sample of my kind of study:

    http://www.tkdchungdokwan.com/files/TkdStudentManual2012.pdf

    This one has pluses + minuses. Theres' quite a variety among traditional karate manuals, given the numerous styles and orgs. within styles. Quality is all over the place, some cover or emphasize this, others that. Hey, there's even social studies content in there too, like rules for practicing the art, and codes of conduct.

    We have some commonality on objectives, some difference. Difference in approach. For one, the styles of Shaolin kempo and American kenpo are much more sophisticated TMA styles compared to my rather basic karate style. The bane of these styles is that they are of such higher level and complex, is practitioners fail to access their higher strengths and effectiveness.

    So practitioners and this is true of karateka as well, go to the active kumite to learn, as you clearly propose. I'm mean look at how Stephen Thompson fights in MMA, or his kickboxing full contact. It's almost nothing like the kempo he claims to have mastered (3rd degree?). Look at his MMA training, it's kickboxing done rather poorly at that. When the high pressure was on with physically daunting MMA opponents, he crumbled.

    This is why I train a much more basic karate like Shotokan, but not Shotokan. It's so much more doable than kenpo, yet very difficult compared to MMA sport training. Note however, as one approaches the black-belt, the techniques in my style begin to assimilate somewhat of a kenpo nature. Not really kenpo, not that sophisticated.

    What I think is very interesting on this forum is to see how Simon, that Kyo Greenbelt progresses. I saw you guys started a post regarding the flinching, which I just commented upon. HHHmmmmm.
     
  20. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob Master Black Belt

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    People have overworking egos. It's prevalent in human nature, especially prevalent in social media.

    At my first TMA school, one of the assistant instructors told me one day that you aren't a bona fide karateka until you've had a bone broken. He continued to say that another karate school of some Okinawan style, the instructor broke on of his bones. Later one class, he elbowed me hard in the ribs, and oh did that hurt. Of course he was much bigger and was stronger than I was too.

    Part of that stemmed from his frustration outside of the school. He was working as a temp, non-union position at a company and had been waiting years to get a full time union spot. Out of frustration, he came in and was in the rut of over-training. He kept doing kata on & on out of frustration, to work off his frustration.

    He was the first TMA instructor who challenged me to sparring, there clearly point fighting. I said ok. The instant he said go, I hit him so fast he never saw it coming. The truth is the technique and the mindful manner in which I hit him made the strike fast in effect so that he had no time to react. From then on he was very cordial to me, he took the loss like a good sport. He later opened his own TMA school.

    See, I had realized TMA effectiveness powered by the principles I've talked about. And I had been practicing about 4-8 hours a day for say three months when he challenged me. As I spoke earlier, I didn't have any real power in my strikes at that time. I was in really good condition though.

    Well you're on a different planet than I'm on. There's always showoffs, bullies, the arrogant. Surprise, surprise. I posted how I walked away from the Isshin Ryu club.

    In my teens, I never cared to beat people up. It's that I could would be important. You believe in competition; for brevity I believe in repetition done to principle. There's more karate practitioner's in the kumite training camp like you; that's not the traditional karate model, however.

    Plus the main posters here are invested in martial arts schools. They have to appeal to the public for financial success. Look a the goings on in the Isshin ryu club. The only solid practitioner, with a nod to the 2nd degree fighter, was the middle aged 3rd degree. The kickboxer was running over all the belt ranks. The quality of competitor in TMA schools is often low. They walk through the program, like MMA competitors work through their camps, with brain largely off. You can get away with that in sport fighting, it can kill you in TMA, sap the life right out of it.

    I'm perfectly fine with people relying on free sparring, the sport competition model. However, that's not way to excel at traditional karate, American kenpo, or Shaolin Kempo by my understanding.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018

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