dvcochran
Grandmaster
The topic says it all. know there are variants in different styles. What are your mechanics and philosophy regarding. When do you NOT do it?
How / When / Why Do You Bow?
- Thread starter dvcochran
- Start date
I'll give a few variations within NGA, as I know of them.
Typical in the NGAA and most mainline schools:
A few schools have gone to using standing bow to start and end class, and some schools/instructors seem to go back and forth, based on how "formal" they feel at the moment. I'm in this crowd - it seems to depend whether I've decided to wear hakama or not that day, and how many students I have. I rarely use a formal bow with a single student.
Programs in rec centers and such sometimes skip the bow into/out of the training area. I'm in that crowd.
Typical in the NGAA and most mainline schools:
- Bow when entering the training area (usually zarei - standing bow).
- Bow at beginning and ending of class (usually ritsu rei - kneeling bow).
- Some schools also bow onto and off of the mats (zarei).
A few schools have gone to using standing bow to start and end class, and some schools/instructors seem to go back and forth, based on how "formal" they feel at the moment. I'm in this crowd - it seems to depend whether I've decided to wear hakama or not that day, and how many students I have. I rarely use a formal bow with a single student.
Programs in rec centers and such sometimes skip the bow into/out of the training area. I'm in that crowd.
Good topic! I'm a big fan of the bow. In Kyokushin our bow is both fists/arms coming up and crossing in front our face, then as we lower and uncross them, elbows stop at hip level, 90° angle of lower to upper arm and say "osu" at completion. We used to bow:
-Upon entering the dojo we did two bows (one to shomen or front of dojo, and one to the dojo as a whole)
-To our other dojo members when greeting them
-Starting class
-When beginning we go into seiza and mokuso (meditation) and do a series of bows first/afterwards (fists on ground, upper body leans forward to bow) to Sosai, Kancho, Shihan and Otagani (everyone)
-When returning (nao-rei) to fudo dachi or our original stance from another
-To our partner before and after any partner drills
-Beginning and ending of sparring rounds
-Start and end of kata
-End of class (similar to start of class)
-Upon leaving the dojo
So lots of bows haha. And there are probably more instances! But I really like them, and to me it shows respect, that everyone is equal (all ranks bow to each other) and acknowledgement that you've heard the command.
When in my kata tournaments I've slightly altered my bowing style and sequence, simply because I really love the traditional karate bow (heels together, feet 45° musubi dachi, palms at sides, bow at hips 45°).
Christopher Adamchek
Purple Belt
@gpseymour hit some great points
on how:
- some styles use different hand positions which can vary greatly
- angle of the bow can often be 15 to 30 degrees, sometimes the later is used only to high instructors and 15 to fellow students
on why:
- the japanese word/symbol "rei" used to convey bowing doesnt mean to bow, it actually means respect, but when you bow you are to give and have respect
on how:
- some styles use different hand positions which can vary greatly
- angle of the bow can often be 15 to 30 degrees, sometimes the later is used only to high instructors and 15 to fellow students
on why:
- the japanese word/symbol "rei" used to convey bowing doesnt mean to bow, it actually means respect, but when you bow you are to give and have respect
I'll add some descriptions I meant to include in this post.
Standing bow: From loose "attention", hands at sides. As the bow starts, hands move to thighs (probably inherited from our kneeling bow) bend at the waist, eyes to what/who you're bowing at, and bow about as much as they do (we don't follow the Japanese custom of who bows lower). When bowing to enter the training space, bow to the "shrine" (picture of founder, usually, with scrolls), or to the middle of the training space (if no "shrine").
Kneeling bow (most common method in NGA): From loose "attention". Move hands to front of thighs, step back right foot slightly, lower to right knee. Step back left foot to match, lower left knee, sit on feet, toes crossed (technically, left toe on top, but I don't think anyone cares). Hands move to mid-thigh or slightly lower, knees are about a fist or two apart. Following the instructor's lead, left hand, then right moves to mat in front of knees (where face/forehead will be), and bow down to nearly the floor. Some schools teach keeping the eyes on the instructor (not following Japanese custom, as I understand it), while others teach eyes to the ground, except for the instructor (consistent with what I've been told of Japanese custom). Stay down slightly longer than the instructor and rise at the same time as the senior student. Reverse the kneeling order to stand.
(In my classes, the only difference in that is that we don't step. We lower to a squat and lower one knee at a time.)
Typically, kneeling bows are only ever led by a black belt rank. All others leading/starting a class use a standing bow. Many instructors won't use a kneeling bow with kids (they get tired of trying to get them to do it right).
Bows at the beginning/end of class, the instructor is typically in front of the "shrine", so students cover the principle of bowing to "shrine" and instructor at the same time with a single bow.
jobo
Grandmaster
Never except when im on stage and the audiance are cheering their apreciation or when the queen is presenting me with a medal for services to humanity, so just never really,!!
skribs
Grandmaster
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How?
- Attention position. Hands at the sides, feet together. Bend at the waist and keep eye contact. It's kind of like a salute, you hold the bow until the person you're bowing too stands up. You should be parallel to the ground when you bow (unless you have back problems).
- Alternatively, when receiving an item, either two-hands on the item and head down, or one hand on the item and the other hand tucked in for small items (i.e. an ID card).
- When entering or leaving the dojang
- When entering or leaving the mat
- When you see a black belt (even if you are a black belt)
- When you see a junior instructor
- When you start working with or are done working with a partner
- When you receive an item from an instructor or black belt
- When you give an item to an instructor or black belt
- To the flags at the start of class
- To the flags and instructors at the end of class
- To each other at the end of class
- When entering class or entering the mat, to remind yourself that this is a place of respect
- When you see a black belt to show them respect as a black belt
- When you partner up to show that your intentions are to help each other
- When you are finished working with a partner to show your gratitude
- When you are finished with class or leaving, a sign of respect to close the bow you made coming in
Danny T
Senior Master
We are a multi martial art facility and we bow, wai, or bao quan depending on which art is being trained.
- upon entering or leaving the training area.
- as a group at the beginning and end of the training session
- toward our training partner prior to and at the end of each training round
It is always as a show of respect to each other so we keep our eyes up. It isn't about being subservient. The bow is a slight bending forward from the waist. Or when performing the wai the hands are placed together palm to palm at about the height of the chin and held for approximately 2 seconds again with the eyes up and in contact with the person the wai is toward.
The bao quan (right fist covered with left hand) with a slight bending of the waist is also used.
- upon entering or leaving the training area.
- as a group at the beginning and end of the training session
- toward our training partner prior to and at the end of each training round
It is always as a show of respect to each other so we keep our eyes up. It isn't about being subservient. The bow is a slight bending forward from the waist. Or when performing the wai the hands are placed together palm to palm at about the height of the chin and held for approximately 2 seconds again with the eyes up and in contact with the person the wai is toward.
The bao quan (right fist covered with left hand) with a slight bending of the waist is also used.
The How - Right fist into open left hand, or arms by sides of legs, depending on mood. Slight bow, eyes always looking directly at the person you are bowing too.
The When - Whatever the etiquette of the particular dojo I'm in uses. Or, in my own dojos over the years, entering and leaving the training area, before and after class, or when working one on one with another person....like before and after beating each other up.
The Why - Respect. At least in my particular world. And I'll tell you something else. When teaching young men who might not have been raised with the same advantages as the rest of us, this becomes an important thing....to them.
BUT - I also train in places with no bowing whatsoever. And I see no less respect in these places than anywhere we do bow.
The When - Whatever the etiquette of the particular dojo I'm in uses. Or, in my own dojos over the years, entering and leaving the training area, before and after class, or when working one on one with another person....like before and after beating each other up.
The Why - Respect. At least in my particular world. And I'll tell you something else. When teaching young men who might not have been raised with the same advantages as the rest of us, this becomes an important thing....to them.
BUT - I also train in places with no bowing whatsoever. And I see no less respect in these places than anywhere we do bow.
The wai - is that from Muay Thai??
I enjoy the ritual of the bow - especially the kneeling bow - but I've seen the same you have: it's a way to show respect, but doesn't really alter the amount of respect shown. A good training session has respect, whether bows show up, or not.The How - Right fist into open left hand, or arms by sides of legs, depending on mood. Slight bow, eyes always looking directly at the person you are bowing too.
The When - Whatever the etiquette of the particular dojo I'm in uses. Or, in my own dojos over the years, entering and leaving the training area, before and after class, or when working one on one with another person....like before and after beating each other up.
The Why - Respect. At least in my particular world. And I'll tell you something else. When teaching young men who might not have been raised with the same advantages as the rest of us, this becomes an important thing....to them.
BUT - I also train in places with no bowing whatsoever. And I see no less respect in these places than anywhere we do bow.
Danny T
Senior Master
Yes.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
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i think most everything has been covered.
all i can add is i do a kneeling bow sometime in the beginning of training and the end of training. i generally have pictures of founders on the front wall and a memorial area where teachers who have meaning to me and who have passed.... i bow to their memory and to the fact that without them the art would not be what it is. its a moment for me to reflect and say thank you.
all i can add is i do a kneeling bow sometime in the beginning of training and the end of training. i generally have pictures of founders on the front wall and a memorial area where teachers who have meaning to me and who have passed.... i bow to their memory and to the fact that without them the art would not be what it is. its a moment for me to reflect and say thank you.
I normally bow when I enter/leave the mat. My original school did that, and I went there for 15+ years so it's ingrained in me. The dojos I've been to since, none of them have done that, but no one says anything when I do. The rest of them (and the original as well...lot of bowing there), do a bow at the beginning of class. At kempo, it was a standing bow, with one open hand over a fist. At okinawan, I think it was the same, or might have been hands on the side and bow. At the judo school, on the floor/on knees, the instructor said something in japanese, and the highest student would respond, then everyone bowed (I can't remember what was said...can't retain japanese for the life of me). At Kali, we do either a short or long 'bow', but in both it's more of a salute than a bow. In fencing, we would not do any sort of bow in training, but at the beginning of each bout, salute to our opponent and coach. Some salute to God, and one of my friend's would salute to another fencer that he knew who had passed.
The purpose of all of them was showing respect. Either to our fellow classmates, our instructor, our country, or the arts founder. The bow in/out of the room is respect for the training place. Never worship, always respect for the object the bow is towards.
The purpose of all of them was showing respect. Either to our fellow classmates, our instructor, our country, or the arts founder. The bow in/out of the room is respect for the training place. Never worship, always respect for the object the bow is towards.
OP
dvcochran
Grandmaster
- Thread Starter
- #16
I love the equality reference. I talk about it often when teaching. Ego needs to be checked at the door before entering the dojo (or any other room for that matter). I never had much trouble with it but you can really see when someone have problems with bowing to others. Sometimes it is a part of the humbling process.
It is important for anyone with the mantle of teaching to make sure we tell the history of our art and why it is important to appreciate and respect it. I always say our history is important and it what makes us what we are. But we cannot live there. We have to make new histories as well as carry on the things or the past that still have relevance.
OP
dvcochran
Grandmaster
- Thread Starter
- #20
There have been some great post to this thread. The common theme being respect. Respect for instructors, seniors, juniors, self, country, and the workout area. I was hoping people would add to the list of what we pay respect to. Or if there were other reasons for the bow. Great topic.
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