Questions First: What do you want to know about kicks?

[skribs]

In this thread, I want you to ask your questions before you respond to the other posters.

I've just recently earned my 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo. I think this qualifies me as pretty knowledgeable in the ways of kicking. I also know it means I still have a lot to learn and there are tons of people in the world who still know way more than me. But, one of the ways I learn best is by writing things out. It helps me formulate my thoughts on a subject. So in this case, I want to write down everything I know about kicks.

I have a pretty good idea of the basics that I want to include, such as for each kick the different ways you can perform the kick, the striking surface and the intended target, and the role of the kick. I also want to cover a lot of other topics, like generalizations about pushing power vs. damage vs. speed, footwork, combinations, and defenses against the techniques.

It will be fun for me to see how much I know, and which areas I'm fuzzy on (i.e. if I can write a page and a half on one kick and a paragraph on another, I know which one I need to understand more). I also think it will be fun to look back on this when I am a 4th or 5th degree and see how much I knew and how much I learned.

Onto the question - what would you guys want to know about kicks?
Or, for those who already know a lot about kicks, what are common questions you get asked, or questions you wish people would ask?

Again, please post your questions first, and answers or advice second. This way we can still have a discussion, but I can also get a lot of topics to address.

 

[jobo]

In this thread, I want you to ask your questions before you respond to the other posters.

I've just recently earned my 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo. I think this qualifies me as pretty knowledgeable in the ways of kicking. I also know it means I still have a lot to learn and there are tons of people in the world who still know way more than me. But, one of the ways I learn best is by writing things out. It helps me formulate my thoughts on a subject. So in this case, I want to write down everything I know about kicks.

I have a pretty good idea of the basics that I want to include, such as for each kick the different ways you can perform the kick, the striking surface and the intended target, and the role of the kick. I also want to cover a lot of other topics, like generalizations about pushing power vs. damage vs. speed, footwork, combinations, and defenses against the techniques.

It will be fun for me to see how much I know, and which areas I'm fuzzy on (i.e. if I can write a page and a half on one kick and a paragraph on another, I know which one I need to understand more). I also think it will be fun to look back on this when I am a 4th or 5th degree and see how much I knew and how much I learned.

Onto the question - what would you guys want to know about kicks?
Or, for those who already know a lot about kicks, what are common questions you get asked, or questions you wish people would ask?

Again, please post your questions first, and answers or advice second. This way we can still have a discussion, but I can also get a lot of topics to address.

Ok I'm go first,

What kicks can you get on route 66 ?

 

[Martial D]

In this thread, I want you to ask your questions before you respond to the other posters.

I've just recently earned my 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo. I think this qualifies me as pretty knowledgeable in the ways of kicking. I also know it means I still have a lot to learn and there are tons of people in the world who still know way more than me. But, one of the ways I learn best is by writing things out. It helps me formulate my thoughts on a subject. So in this case, I want to write down everything I know about kicks.

I have a pretty good idea of the basics that I want to include, such as for each kick the different ways you can perform the kick, the striking surface and the intended target, and the role of the kick. I also want to cover a lot of other topics, like generalizations about pushing power vs. damage vs. speed, footwork, combinations, and defenses against the techniques.

It will be fun for me to see how much I know, and which areas I'm fuzzy on (i.e. if I can write a page and a half on one kick and a paragraph on another, I know which one I need to understand more). I also think it will be fun to look back on this when I am a 4th or 5th degree and see how much I knew and how much I learned.

Onto the question - what would you guys want to know about kicks?
Or, for those who already know a lot about kicks, what are common questions you get asked, or questions you wish people would ask?

Again, please post your questions first, and answers or advice second. This way we can still have a discussion, but I can also get a lot of topics to address.

When you restomp the groin, do you use the heel for both the first and second stomps?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A TKD side kick can be performed as:

1. Raise your leg.
2. Make your lower leg to be parallel to the ground.
3. Bend your knee back as far as you can.
4. kick out.
5. Bend your knee back again while lower leg is still parallel to the ground.
6. Straight down your lower leg and drop down.

I can understand 1 - 4. I cannot understand 5 - 6. Why do you need to pull your kicking leg back?

 

[jobo]

A TKD side kick can be performed as:

1. Raise your leg.
2. Make your lower leg to be parallel to the ground.
3. Bend your knee back as far as you can.
4. kick out.
5. Bend your knee back again while lower leg is still parallel to the ground.
6. Straight down your lower leg and drop down.

I can understand 1 - 4. I cannot understand 5 - 6. Why do you need to pull your kicking leg back?

Because you would fall over if you left it there

 

[Jaeimseu]

A TKD side kick can be performed as:

1. Raise your leg.
2. Make your lower leg to be parallel to the ground.
3. Bend your knee back as far as you can.
4. kick out.
5. Bend your knee back again while lower leg is still parallel to the ground.
6. Straight down your lower leg and drop down.

I can understand 1 - 4. I cannot understand 5 - 6. Why do you need to pull your kicking leg back?

It’s not always necessary, but it allows you to place your foot down where you want it for better recovery, makes grabbing the leg more difficult, and allows you to kick again if you like.


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[Kung Fu Wang]

Because you would fall over if you left it there

Why do you need to pull back your kicking leg? Why not just drop right down?

It's just like the flying side kick. You don't fly back afterward. You just land wherever that you are supposed to land.

So the flying side kick uses the body momentum. Why don't you also use moment in the regular side kick?

 

[Jaeimseu]

Questions I tend to anticipate:

1. Why do I have to/how much should I pivot my base foot?

2. What is the correct foot position for the kicking foot?

3. Why does Taekwondo perform this kick differently than ...?

4. How do I apply this kick?


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[Danny T]

Why do you need to pull back your kicking leg? Why not just drop right down?

It's just like the flying side kick. You don't fly back afterward. You just land wherever that you are supposed to land.

So the flying side kick uses the body momentum. Why don't you also use moment in the regular side kick?

Depends on how the opponent responds to the kick or how the kick affects the same.

 

[Danny T]

Ok I'll play.
How do you recover a kick that the opponent had caught? For discussion let's use a roundhouse and the opponent catches with an over wrap and has your leg caught between the foot and the calf...how to you recover the kick once the leg has been caught?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Why do you need to pull back your kicking leg? Why not just drop right down?

Because you don't necessarily want to take a giant step forward. And if you dropped it straight down from full extension, your stance would be.... sub-optimal.

 

[CB Jones]

A TKD side kick can be performed as:

1. Raise your leg.
2. Make your lower leg to be parallel to the ground.
3. Bend your knee back as far as you can.
4. kick out.
5. Bend your knee back again while lower leg is still parallel to the ground.
6. Straight down your lower leg and drop down.

I can understand 1 - 4. I cannot understand 5 - 6. Why do you need to pull your kicking leg back?

This isn't how my son's school teaches it.

Instead it's:

1. Raise knee in front of you until thigh is parallel with ground and lower leg is perpendicular to ground (Chamber position)
2 kick out as you rotate your hip driving your kick forward with your leg ending somewhat parallel to ground. with toes slightly angled down (due to rotation of hip)
3 Reverse the action of #2 ending back in the chamber position
4 Put your foot down steping into your normal stance.

 

[skribs]

When you restomp the groin, do you use the heel for both the first and second stomps?

If I'm barefoot I use the heel in a downward stomp. If I am wearing shoes I will aim between the legs and do more of a front kick/roundhouse kick motion with my toes.

I do want to include stomps and downward kicks.

A TKD side kick can be performed as:

1. Raise your leg.
2. Make your lower leg to be parallel to the ground.
3. Bend your knee back as far as you can.
4. kick out.
5. Bend your knee back again while lower leg is still parallel to the ground.
6. Straight down your lower leg and drop down.

I can understand 1 - 4. I cannot understand 5 - 6. Why do you need to pull your kicking leg back?

I don't entirely understand your post. Particularly #2 and #5. "Make your lower leg to be parallel to the ground." Parallel to the ground means in line with, which means either lying on the ground or in the air above the ground in a horizontal position. I'm wondering if something is lost in translation here between us. Maybe you could clarify what you mean by this?

In any event, I take your posts to mean:

1. Why recoil the side kick?
2. If you recoil the side kick, why not recoil the flying side kick?

To answer question 1, you recoil the side kick because you recoil any kick. Once the damage is done, it's better to get your leg out of harms way. This has many benefits:

• Recoiling your leg makes it harder to grab your leg.
• Recoiling your leg and making a quick step down gets you back into a fighting stance faster than letting gravity do the job
• Getting your stance faster is better for balance and follow-up techniques

Now, if you do a pushing side kick instead of a snap side kick (i.e., the goal is to kick them in the chest and send them flying back several feet, instead of a kick to the gut to make them puke - which has happened in our school) you will have your foot out longer, and you will generally have more momentum in the foot. Your other leg acts as an anchor, and the momentum helps pull you down. So with a pushing kick, you may may end up not needing to recoil as much as you do with a snap kick. It's kind of like how if you're riding a bike or motorcycle and you hit the front brake, your bike tips forward. If you're going for momentum in the kick, then it will tip you forward.

This brings us to question 2, and why you don't recoil the flying side kick. Well, you can, if you make the flying side kick more of a snap kick. But with the flying side kick your momentum is going forward, and so when your non-kicking leg catches the ground as you land, the momentum will bring your kicking leg down. Alternatively, if you jumped straight up for the kick, your momentum when you land is already downward, and your kick will quickly fall as well.

I actually did a few flying side kicks to pay attention to how my body reacts when I land.

Good question! (I just hope we can clarify your steps 2 and 5 so I can make sure I understand it right).

Questions I tend to anticipate:

1. Why do I have to/how much should I pivot my base foot?

2. What is the correct foot position for the kicking foot?

3. Why does Taekwondo perform this kick differently than ...?

4. How do I apply this kick?


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1. In general, you want your knee aligned with the direction of force. Knees move forward-backward, but not side to side. So for a front kick, point front. Roundhouse kick, point side. Back kick, point back. I do want to cover this in each kick when I write it up.
2. I do plan to do this for each kick. In general, avoid the toes unless you're wearing shoes.
3. I do want to do pros and cons of variants. For example, the Karate front kick vs. Taekwondo front kick. I'm guessing the majority of it is either preference, the range of the art, or the expected targets. The Karate kick uses the heel, while the Taekwondo kick uses the instep or the ball of the foot. I'm guessing this is because Karate operates at a closer range, and because Karate expects their kicks to go for lower targets, where the heel makes more sense (see my answer to the stomp question). These are guesses as to why Karate chose it over Taekwondo. There's also the possibility that TKD has sunk more R&D into kicks and so TKD is simply better at them.
4. I do want to do this. But it will be a kick-by-kick basis.

Ok I'll play.
How do you recover a kick that the opponent had caught? For discussion let's use a roundhouse and the opponent catches with an over wrap and has your leg caught between the foot and the calf...how to you recover the kick once the leg has been caught?

Follow-up question. What is an over wrap? Very good question. It doesn't come into play much at my school because grabbing the leg isn't allowed in WT sparring rules. We teach defenses against kicks which include grabs, but we don't teach the counters to those defenses (at least not yet).

Here are things I've tried in light freestyle sparring, but never had the chance to really apply:

• Recoil the leg, which pulls me in closer, and grab the opponent.
• Jump roundhouse, back kick, or hook kick with the other leg. Works a lot better on a trampoline (where my friends and I used to spar)
• Use one hand to replace my other leg and do a kick. Like the above, but with a more stable place to operate. Sometimes twists you out of the grip.

Other ideas may be to take yourself to the ground on your terms and try a leg sweep (I stole that one from Undercover Blues, if you haven't seen it, it's a slow start but a great movie), or simply kick again while they're holding you in attempt to buck them off.

But I don't have a tried-and-true answer here.

 

[Jaeimseu]

[*]In general, you want your knee aligned with the direction of force. Knees move forward-backward, but not side to side. So for a front kick, point front. Roundhouse kick, point side. Back kick, point back. I do want to cover this in each kick when I write it up.
[*]I do plan to do this for each kick. In general, avoid the toes unless you're wearing shoes.
[*]I do want to do pros and cons of variants. For example, the Karate front kick vs. Taekwondo front kick. I'm guessing the majority of it is either preference, the range of the art, or the expected targets. The Karate kick uses the heel, while the Taekwondo kick uses the instep or the ball of the foot. I'm guessing this is because Karate operates at a closer range, and because Karate expects their kicks to go for lower targets, where the heel makes more sense (see my answer to the stomp question). These are guesses as to why Karate chose it over Taekwondo. There's also the possibility that TKD has sunk more R&D into kicks and so TKD is simply better at them.

My #3 question was actually referring to why Taekwondo kicks differently from other styles, so more in line with your discussion of karate vs. Taekwondo kicks.


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[Dirty Dog]

Ok I'll play.
How do you recover a kick that the opponent had caught? For discussion let's use a roundhouse and the opponent catches with an over wrap and has your leg caught between the foot and the calf...how to you recover the kick once the leg has been caught?

Well, since they've created a lovely opening, one option would be to punch them in the head.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

just hope we can clarify your steps 2 and 5 so I can make sure I understand it right)..

The lower leg is in the air above the ground in a horizontal position with knee pointing side way.

Your explanation of push kick is what I'm looking for. Thanks!

 

[skribs]

The lower leg is in the air above the ground in a horizontal position with knee pointing side way.

Your explanation of push kick is what I'm looking for. Thanks!

So you're talking about a jumping or flying side kick, then?

Well, since they've created a lovely opening, one option would be to punch them in the head.

I've done this. It works well if they don't know how to properly sweep.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've done this. It works well if they don't know how to properly sweep.

Everything works well if you don't know how to counter it. Or if you do it before they counter.
I'm going to rank punching them in the head as being a higher percentage move than trying to kick them with the other foot.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So you're talking about a jumping or flying side kick, then?

Not jump side kick but regular side kick. This is the way that I learned TKD side kick from my TKD friend.

1. Knee up - foot point down,
2. Knee side way - foot point to opponent.
3. Kick out.
4. Pull back - knee side way, foot point to opponent.
5. Knee up - foot point down.
6. Leg drop.

I like TKD side kick better than my long fist side kick because it has more detail.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How do you recover a kick that the opponent had caught?

If your opponent

- catches your kicking leg,
- put another hand under your ankle,
- raise your ankle over his shoulder,

you will fall back. In order to prevent this from happening, you have to

- drop weight on that leg,
- put your leg into your opponent groin,
- control his head, and
- play the single leg hopping game.