Questions about TSD versions, with Chuck Norris content

Discussion in 'Tang Soo Do' started by Gaucho, Mar 28, 2018.

  1. Gaucho

    Gaucho White Belt

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    I'm new here. Hello. Enough of that....

    Here's the easy one: According to Wikipedia: """He joined the United States Air Force as an Air Policeman (AP) in 1958 and was sent to Osan Air Base, South Korea. It was there that Norris acquired the nickname Chuck and began his training in Tang Soo Do (tangsudo)...."""

    1) Does the vintage of Norris's beginning in TSD training indicate which flavor or school of TSD he was training in, or does anyone just know?

    I've read the threads here and a fair bit elsewhere about the history of TSD, the split, etc., and after a while I find it hard to recall who's who, never mind who's on first. From Wikipedia: """Despite this unification effort, the kwans continued to teach their individual styles. Hwang Kee and a large constituent of the Moo Duk Kwan continued to develop a version of Tang Soo Do that eventually became what is now known as "Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan". This modified version of Tang Soo Do incorporates more fluid "soft" movements reminiscent of certain traditional Chinese martial arts. The World Tang Soo Do Association and the International Tang Soo Do Federation teach systems of Tang Soo Do that existed before the Taekwondo "merger" and before the development of modern Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. These versions of Tang Soo Do are heavily influenced by Korean culture and also appear to be related to Okinawan Karate as initially taught in Japan by Gichin Funakoshi.""""

    2) Is it now the case that (a) The World Tang Soo Do Association, The International Tang Soo Do Federation, and Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, are all outside The Big TKD Merger?

    I am also interested to know which schools/styles are more martial and less sportish.

    Thanks very much for any wisdom.
     
  2. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Although a fan of TSD, I don't know the answers to your questions.

    But I wanted to say Welcome to MartialTalk, Gaucho. :)
     
  3. Gaucho

    Gaucho White Belt

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    Thanks, Barney.
     
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  4. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Tang Soo Do is just the Korean pronunciation of the characters the Japanese would pronounce Karate-Do. So it's pretty generic. The Moo Duk Kwan was the biggest of the Kwan back then, but if I'm not mistaken, Tang Soo Do was used as a generic term by most. So that doesn't really tell us much about who he studied under, other than to say it was most likely Moo Duk Kwan simply because they were the largest system at the time. Like today, when the Kukkiwon is the largest org, making it safe to guess that a random TKD student studied Kukki-TKD.

    GM HWANG, Kee was like most of the founders in that he trained in Shotokan, but he also reportedly studied some Northern Chinese arts, which makes it understandable that his Tang Soo Do (and eventually Soo Bahk Do) would be less linear than most Taekwondo systems.

    Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do as they are taught today all (to the best of my knowledge) trace their lineage back to GM Hwang, and to a point in time after he split from the unification effort. That makes them, by definition, not a part of the unification or TKD, even though they share the same roots and are quite similar in execution and technique.
     
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  5. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    In my opinion, Norris' time at the Osan base would have predated any of the reinfusion of "Chinese" influences into the Moo Duk Kwan. He would have trained in straight Korean karate if you ask me. His instructor was JC Shin (who later founded WTSDA) according to this link: Tang Soo Do World

    WTSDA and ITF (Tang Soo Do) both were founded after the kwan unification movement, so if you want a black and white answer, sure that seems clear cut to me.
     
  6. Gaucho

    Gaucho White Belt

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    Thanks very much for all those answers.
     
  7. Mitlov

    Mitlov Yellow Belt

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    I don't know as a historic fact which group Mr. Norris had trained with, but as a current practitioner of his style, and with a background in JKA Shotokan, taekwondo, and a little bit of Chinese martial arts, I can weigh in a bit. The mechanics and the forms are very heavily rooted in Shotokan, with some stylistic influence that feels to me like pre-Olympic TKD (stances are a bit longer and wider than Stotokan, roundhouse kicks are with the top of the foot instead of the ball, etc). Compared to modern JKA Shotokan, I think there's more emphasis on padwork and sparring and less emphasis on interpreting forms (kata bunkai), but setting aside training emphasis and looking at the underlying mechanics, they are very similar. I see little or no elements which I would characterise as soft, circular, or stereotypically CMA-ish.
     
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