Question for people who have trained in Aikido for a while.

[Coker101]

I understand that for beginners you have a set way of practicing and learning techniques (guy walks up and grabs your wrist, arm, whatever). My question is, at a higher ranking or more advanced classes do you guys practice in a more realistic way?

 

[K-man]

I understand that for beginners you have a set way of practicing and learning techniques (guy walks up and grabs your wrist, arm, whatever). My question is, at a higher ranking or more advanced classes do you guys practice in a more realistic way?

Mmm! What is realistic? We train against realistic punches and kicks, we train against chokes and holds and we train to reverse locks when they are being applied.

Training from a grip or hold is a method of training, nothing more. When you first start training your partner let's you perform the technique, that is 'receives' for you. As you progress the grip becomes stronger and stronger and the resistance to you performing the technique shifts towards full resistance. The grip is symbolic in that it doesn't exist either in the technique you are performing or in real life. The exercise is designed that you ignore the grip and perform the technique. When you can do that slowly against total resistance you are starting to learn Aikido. Aikido is a mind game. If your mind goes to the grip on your wrist your technique will not work. You will be stopped unless you have a much weaker opponent. Aikido is a 'soft' art that works by blending with your attacker, not physically clashing. Working from a grip teaches how to move around strength without clashing.

Again it is the Japanese principle of Shuhari. You learn the technique, you develop your technique then the technique just happens, even if it is not recognisable as the technique. That is why, when you see good Aikido, it just seems to flow.
:asian:

 

[Coker101]

Mmm! What is realistic? We train against realistic punches and kicks, we train against chokes and holds and we train to reverse locks when they are being applied.

Training from a grip or hold is a method of training, nothing more. When you first start training your partner let's you perform the technique, that is 'receives' for you. As you progress the grip becomes stronger and stronger and the resistance to you performing the technique shifts towards full resistance. The grip is symbolic in that it doesn't exist either in the technique you are performing or in real life. The exercise is designed that you ignore the grip and perform the technique. When you can do that slowly against total resistance you are starting to learn Aikido. Aikido is a mind game. If your mind goes to the grip on your wrist your technique will not work. You will be stopped unless you have a much weaker opponent. Aikido is a 'soft' art that works by blending with your attacker, not physically clashing. Working from a grip teaches how to move around strength without clashing.

Again it is the Japanese principle of Shuhari. You learn the technique, you develop your technique then the technique just happens, even if it is not recognisable as the technique. That is why, when you see good Aikido, it just seems to flow.
:asian:

Thanks, that is what I was wondering about.

 

[Coker101]

I'm still considering Aikido but being 100% honest here I'm still concerned about the "real" factor. I know people who train in Aikido probably hate to hear that and believe me I mean no disrespect. It's just that I see so much Aikido bashing and people saying that every Aikido guy has gotten beaten to a pulp in mma....though I have to say I don't see how Aikido would even fit in mma at all anyway. And to be honest I have no interest at all in bjj or mma anyway.

I have also heard that almost everything depends on someone grabbing you or catching their arm/hand. That's pretty difficult in a real world situation....

So it does kind of concern me. I loved the dojo I went by and I think I would really enjoy it but I'm a bit turned off at the idea that I would train in something combat/self defense related and it not be useful. Still it's at the top of my list at the moment but advice or opinions on this from you guys is very welcomed.

 

[Spinedoc]

I'm still considering Aikido but being 100% honest here I'm still concerned about the "real" factor. I know people who train in Aikido probably hate to hear that and believe me I mean no disrespect. It's just that I see so much Aikido bashing and people saying that every Aikido guy has gotten beaten to a pulp in mma....though I have to say I don't see how Aikido would even fit in mma at all anyway. And to be honest I have no interest at all in bjj or mma anyway.

I have also heard that almost everything depends on someone grabbing you or catching their arm/hand. That's pretty difficult in a real world situation....

So it does kind of concern me. I loved the dojo I went by and I think I would really enjoy it but I'm a bit turned off at the idea that I would train in something combat/self defense related and it not be useful. Still it's at the top of my list at the moment but advice or opinions on this from you guys is very welcomed.

This:

 

[K-man]

I'm still considering Aikido but being 100% honest here I'm still concerned about the "real" factor. I know people who train in Aikido probably hate to hear that and believe me I mean no disrespect. It's just that I see so much Aikido bashing and people saying that every Aikido guy has gotten beaten to a pulp in mma....though I have to say I don't see how Aikido would even fit in mma at all anyway. And to be honest I have no interest at all in bjj or mma anyway.

MMA is a sport. That is not to say that it is not effective for defending yourself in a street situation but it is primarily designed to prepare people for competition. Aikido is non competitive. Even Tomiki Aikido which does have competition operates with a totally different set of rules. Forget what others say about Aikido, most of that is uninformed opinion based on what they have seen on YouTube. Good Aikido is very effective but it does take time to get to that stage. If you want an art that will make you a legend on the street in 60 days, take up boxing or Krav. They give you the simple tools to do the job.

I have also heard that almost everything depends on someone grabbing you or catching their arm/hand. That's pretty difficult in a real world situation....

Totally false. Aikido to a certain extent depends on someone attacking with intent but there are techniques that allow you to utilise the preemptive strike. As I said previously, gripping is a training tool. It is not part of real fighting. Catching the arm or wrist is also not a primary objective although obviously to apply a wrist lock you need to have hold of the wrist. Controlling the arm is totally different and easy to achieve. That is not exclusive to Aikido. Every MA I have seen does that, just that Aikido does not rely on strength. In a close fighting environment you work with what you have. If you have a wrist in your hand you have various options, but you don't go into a fight with the object of grabbing a wrist.

So it does kind of concern me. I loved the dojo I went by and I think I would really enjoy it but I'm a bit turned off at the idea that I would train in something combat/self defense related and it not be useful. Still it's at the top of my list at the moment but advice or opinions on this from you guys is very welcomed.

Don't take any notice of uninformed chatter. Go along and try it for yourself. It will take time before you feel comfortable using it to defend yourself. If that is a concern, do something else. If it is not a concern, go for it. I love my Aikido training just as I enjoy my other MAs. At this time I consider my Aikido as effective as my Karate or Krav. In the future I can see it as being more effective as I get older.
:asian:

 

[Coker101]

Nice video Spinedoc, ty

 

[Coker101]

Don't take any notice of uninformed chatter. Go along and try it for yourself. It will take time before you feel comfortable using it to defend yourself. If that is a concern, do something else. If it is not a concern, go for it. I love my Aikido training just as I enjoy my other MAs. At this time I consider my Aikido as effective as my Karate or Krav. In the future I can see it as being more effective as I get older.
:asian:

Thanks again, K-man. I knew you would reply.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Coker101

I mean no offense and I certainly understand researching a style but I think you may need to read this

If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. - Bruce Lee

Just go give the schools you are asking about a try and go from there

:asian:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

depends on someone grabbing you or catching their arm/hand. That's pretty difficult in a real world situation....

I don't train Aikido. But if you want me to choose between the follow 2 methods:

1. You attack me, I response to it.
2. I attack you, you respond to it, I then respond to your respond.

I'll prefer the 2nd approach. The reason is simple. By using the 2nd approach, since when and how I may attack is all up to me, I don't have any dependency.

If I grab on my opponent's arm, I'm going to lock his arm. I'm not going to wait for him to lock my arm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l67npZEAJk&feature=youtu.be

 

[Coker101]

Coker101

I mean no offense and I certainly understand researching a style but I think you may need to read this



Just go give the schools you are asking about a try and go from there

:asian:

Non taken. The thing is I hear Aikido takes a long time to "get it" compared to a lot of other MAs. So I'm just trying at avoid getting in there for a couple years and then being completely disappointed. I'm no longer a young man....time is important to me.

 

[K-man]

Non taken. The thing is I hear Aikido takes a long time to "get it" compared to a lot of other MAs. So I'm just trying at avoid getting in there for a couple years and then being completely disappointed. I'm no longer a young man....time is important to me.

I was 58 when I started Aikido. Even if I hadn't continued, everything I learned translates into every other MA. The skills are transferable. Aikido has enhanced every other form of training I have done. The principles you learn in Aikido help you understand the other arts. In no way would you be wasting your time even if you were to change to a different MA after a couple of years training.
:asian:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you grab on your opponent's arm, you are going to lock his arm. You are not going to wait for him to lock your arm. It defeats the purpose for you to grab on his arm in the first place. This may get into the ancient spear and shield paradox. When you grab on your opponent's arm, who is going to lock who's arm?

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg

 

[Coker101]

If you grab on your opponent's arm, you are going to lock his arm. You are not going to wait for him to lock your arm. It defeats the purpose for you to grab on his arm in the first place. This may get into the ancient spear and shield paradox. When you grab on your opponent's arm, who is going to lock who's arm?

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg

I see.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Non taken. The thing is I hear Aikido takes a long time to "get it" compared to a lot of other MAs. So I'm just trying at avoid getting in there for a couple years and then being completely disappointed. I'm no longer a young man....time is important to me.

That is why you go give it a try, quickest way possible to figure out if it is for you and could also point the way to what you really want too

Good luck and enjoy the training

And for the record, I'm no spring chicken either

 

[K-man]

If you grab on your opponent's arm, you are going to lock his arm. You are not going to wait for him to lock your arm. It defeats the purpose for you to grab on his arm in the first place. This may get into the ancient spear and shield paradox. When you grab on your opponent's arm, who is going to lock who's arm?

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg

Perhaps not always. Sometimes a person will grab an arm or shoulder with one hand in preparation for striking with the other. That grabbing severely disadvantages the attacker if you have trained against that form of attack.
:asian:

 

[oftheherd1]

If you grab on your opponent's arm, you are going to lock his arm. You are not going to wait for him to lock your arm. It defeats the purpose for you to grab on his arm in the first place. This may get into the ancient spear and shield paradox. When you grab on your opponent's arm, who is going to lock who's arm?

http://imageshack.us/a/img607/5666/spearshield.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5230/spearshield1.jpg

I think the idea is that if you are not well versed in grappling arts, and are facing an opponent who is armed with a sword, and you have no weapon, you will look for a way to prevent that opponent from drawing his sword. Grabbing a wrist or some part of the strong arm will hopefully give you some ability to prevent the sword being drawn while you explore other possibilities. Also, in contrast to we in the West, in the Orient, it is much more common for a person to grab you by the wrist to get you to go with them, whether forcefully or more friendly like.

Granted that we don't run around wielding swords against opponents very often these days, still, wrist and arm grabs are a good place to start learning grappling. You begin to get a feel for how you can manipulate joints inasmuch as the wrist tends to be one of the weakest joints. In the grappling arts of Aikido and Hapkido, many of the defenses can be modified into attacks. Also, there are counters to many techniques, but in the Hapkido I learned, that wasn't taught until between 2nd and 3rd Dan. There is a reason for that too; being well versed in many defensive techniques before you try counters.

All that to say don't doubt you will learn many useful techniques in Aikido if that is the art you choose. You will also be very adept at defending against other MA. That is really what Aikido and Hapkido are about, defending against other martial arts. Just don't expect to be and 'expert' in 6 months.

It will take at least 7 months. :rofl:

As far as age, I was in my mid-40s when I started Hapkido. I never felt so uncoordinated as when I started, and the truth be known, many times after as well. But even later in life, you aren't too old to learn and be able to apply your training if misfortune strikes and you must.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

to prevent that opponent from drawing his sword. .

You are talking about some technique like this.

Perhaps not always. Sometimes a person will grab an arm or shoulder with one hand in preparation for striking with the other. That grabbing severely disadvantages the attacker if you have trained against that form of attack.
:asian:

So when you have your right hand on your opponent's right wrist, who will have better advantage?

- Since you grab on your opponent's wrist, you can let it go anytime that you want to. You are in control.
- If your opponent tries to punch you with his other hand, you can always pull his right arm across his body and let his right arm to jam his left arm.
- Even if your opponent's left hand may grab on your right wrist, you can always step in and drop your right elbow onto his chest.
- ...

There are so many advantages when your right hand grab on your opponent's right wrist. A grappler's first move is always to grab on his opponent's wrist. He can apply

- arm dragging,
- arm guiding,
- arm pulling,
- arm shaking,
- ...

to redirect his opponent's arm to wherever he want that arm to be. It doesn't make sense to assume that your opponent can put lock on you before you can put lock on him. When you grab on your opponent's wrist, the moment that your opponent intends to do something, the moment that your hand has moved to his elbow joint and obtain the "clinch" that you are looking for. You will never stay in your wrist control position for more than 1/2 second.

It's a "spear and shield paradox" to assume that to grab on your opponent's wrist will put you in danger, it's not. I'm not an Aikido guy. But I believe it's better to train your skill when you grab on your opponent's wrist instead of to let your opponent to grab on your wrist.

 

[K-man]

So when you have your right hand on your opponent's right wrist, who will have better advantage?

Me because if I have your right wrist you are probably about to have a painful lock applied. I will only have hold of that wrist if I intend using it for something. But conversely, if my opponent has hold of my right wrist it is still me with the advantage. I can take my hand away at any time virtually as if it is not being held at all.

- Since you grab on your opponent's wrist, you can let it go anytime that you want to. You are in control.

Against an untrained opponent, maybe. Against a trained person, no. You have my wrist, I will guarantee I will hit you before you even know my hand has gone. You might think you have control but in fact it is not the case. That is why I teach my students never to grab hold of an arm or wrist unless they have a really good reason. It takes too long to release a grip, remove your hand and strike. You have my wrist, I know for sure where your hand is and I don't have to worry about you hitting me. Like the monkey with the stone in the coconut, once someone has hold they will lose focus on everything else as they try to maintain that grip. By then it's all over.

- If your opponent tries to punch you with his other hand, you can always pull his right arm across his body and let his right arm to jam his left arm.

Good luck with that theory. We don't telegraph punches. If you have my right wrist the distance between my left hand and your face is less than the the distance you will be holding my hand from the trajectory. And your doing that against my resistance ... I don't think so. Wasn't it you talking about fist meets face?

- Even if your opponent's left hand may grab on your right wrist, you can always step in and drop your right elbow onto his chest.
- ...
Not sure who is meant to be doing the grabbing here. Normally a same side grab would be much higher towards the shoulder and preceding a punch with the right hand. Same deal, my right hand meets face before my opponent has time to do anything.

There are so many advantages when your right hand grab on your opponent's right wrist.

From your point of view perhaps. Not a single one from mine.

A grappler's first move is always to grab on his opponent's wrist. He can apply

- arm dragging,
- arm guiding,
- arm pulling,
- arm shaking,
- ...

We are not talking about grappling. Aikido is not about grappling and Aikido has Atemi. You grab my wrist, grappler or not, I won't be going anywhere. Sorry, that's what years of training are for. You want my wrist? Great, here you are ... anytime. I constantly train my guys not to react to being grabbed on the arm. For them it is a good thing.

to redirect his opponent's arm to wherever he want that arm to be. It doesn't make sense to assume that your opponent can put lock on you before you can put lock on him. When you grab on your opponent's wrist, the moment that your opponent intends to do something, the moment that your hand has moved to his elbow joint and obtain the "clinch" that you are looking for. You will never stay in your wrist control position for more than 1/2 second.

Again you are assuming that because you have the grip you have control. That is why in Aikido we offer the wrist. If you're silly enough to grab it in real life ...

So you grab my wrist and half a second later you are letting go? If you could do that, and I doubt that you can grab, do something and release again in half a second, what was the point. Above, you are talking about 'many advantages' of grabbing the wrist and now you're grabbing and letting go straight away. I'm a little bit confused as to what you were grabbing the wrist for in the first place.

It's a "spear and shield paradox" to assume that to grab on your opponent's wrist will put you in danger, it's not.

Believe me, it does.

I'm not an Aikido guy. But I believe it's better to train your skill when you grab on your opponent's wrist instead of to let your opponent to grab on your wrist.

I take the opposing view. I will probably never have the intent of grabbing my opponent's wrist, except maybe in a weapon scenario. That to me makes no sense as now I am chasing an objective rather than being able to take advantage of any opportunities. I will only take the wrist if there is the opportunity to use it to my opponent's disadvantage. Aikido actually teaches the timing within a technique to actually take the wrist. If you take the wrist too soon the technique fails. So to grab the wrist with the intention of performing a particular technique is most likely to fail, IMHO.

Aikido training utilising wrist holds has nothing to do with fighting. It is is part of an exercise, actually a number of exercises, designed to develop your ability to move around an opponent's strength without using force. As Uke, you feel immediately someone start to use strength or allow tension in their arm and you can easily stop them moving. By developing the ability to not allow tension in the arm being held it becomes easy to bypass your opponent's strength and Uke can no longer prevent you from moving.
:asian:

 

[KydeX]

I totally agree with K-Man on this. I train in the Bujinkan myself, and I have to say if anybody grabs my wrist, I believe I have the advantage.