Opinions on this school please.

[Coker101]

Trying to decide what to train and have always been curious about Aikido. You guys who have trained please tell me what you think based off of what you see here please.

Site http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/index.html

Instructors http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/instructor.html

Videos http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/videos.html

Thanks

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well for starters the guy that is promoting them Mitsugi Saotome, he is a direct disciple of the founder of aikido, Morihei Ueshiba.

 

[Coker101]

Well for starters the guy that is promoting them Mitsugi Saotome, he is a direct disciple of the founder of aikido, Morihei Ueshiba.

Yeah I saw that. That's obviously a good thing

 

[K-man]

It really is difficult to make a judgement without visiting the dojo but it looks like a good reputable school. Aikikai is the organisation headed by Ueshiba's family and is the largest Aikido organisation in the world. As I always say, visit the school, take advantage of any free class they offer, speak to the Sensei about the training and ask some of the mid ranked students how they find the training.

One of the things I normally suggest if you had prior experience is to ask, "what if I resist the technique?" In your situation with no MA background, I would address the question to one of the students as in, "what happens if you resist the technique? Do the techniques work against resistance?"
:asian:

 

[Coker101]

It really is difficult to make a judgement without visiting the dojo but it looks like a good reputable school. Aikikai is the organisation headed by Ueshiba's family and is the largest Aikido organisation in the world. As I always say, visit the school, take advantage of any free class they offer, speak to the Sensei about the training and ask some of the mid ranked students how they find the training.

One of the things I normally suggest if you had prior experience is to ask, "what if I resist the technique?" In your situation with no MA background, I would address the question to one of the students as in, "what happens if you resist the technique? Do the techniques work against resistance?"
:asian:

Thanks for the reply.

I do have some MA background. When I was a kid I trained in Judo at the Houston Budokan and then in my late 20s went back to the same school for Jujitsu and Karate. Unfortunately I moved and no long had the option to train there. A year or so later I started training in Kuk Sool Won....got to brown belt about the time my wife became pregnant and then the family took what little time I had for training. Now with my daughter a little older I'm able to train again. I have the option to continue my Kuk Sool Won training but if I were being completely honest I have no interest. Don't know if it was just my particular school or what but found it lacking something....maybe it was my instructor. Anyway...you didn't ask for all that info but what the heck.

Anyway, I wish I could go back to Houston Budokan but it's not an option. Darrel Craig was great but I'm just too far out to travel to his school.

 

[Coker101]

Here is another option.

http://www.bayareacenter.net/

Instructors http://www.bayareacenter.net/index.php?src=gendocs&ref=StaffDirectory&category=Main

They are under http://www.aaa-aikido.com/founder.htm

 

[K-man]

Here is another option.

http://www.bayareacenter.net/

Instructors http://www.bayareacenter.net/index.php?src=gendocs&ref=StaffDirectory&category=Main

They are under http://www.aaa-aikido.com/founder.htm

Almost the same answer as above. Interesting here is the connection to Koichi Tohei. He is a man who I really admire and try to utilise his teaching. He left the Aikikai because of his teaching of 'ki'. In this school it would be interesting to see if they are actually training to use ki. If they are, and can demonstrate it in a way that is real, I would certainly train with them. If not, I would probably go with your first option but either way, you won't go wrong.
:asian:

 

[Coker101]

Almost the same answer as above. Interesting here is the connection to Koichi Tohei. He is a man who I really admire and try to utilise his teaching. He left the Aikikai because of his teaching of 'ki'. In this school it would be interesting to see if they are actually training to use ki. If they are, and can demonstrate it in a way that is real, I would certainly train with them. If not, I would probably go with your first option but either way, you won't go wrong.
:asian:

Don't most Aikido schools teach the use of Ki? I thought it was a fairly large part of the art?

 

[K-man]

Don't most Aikido schools teach the use of Ki? I thought it was a fairly large part of the art?

Depends on what you call Ki. People have different understanding of Ki. Most people can cope with the understanding of hard Ki. We all have it and we all train it without having to think about it. Soft Ki is totally different. To my mind Koichi Tohei was the guru. He wanted to pass on what he had learned and was forced into a position where he had to leave the Ueshiba organisation (Aikikai) and set up his own. If you come across someone who can demonstrate soft Ki, and I'm not referring to folks like the 'Ki Master' that people throw up every time Ki is discussed, sign up and start learning. It will change your understanding totally.

Many Aikido schools teach that you never resist. You learn to receive and in doing so the 'Ki starts to flow' and there is harmonisation. The problem then arises, as happened in my school years back, where an experienced Aikidoka comes to teach Aikido techniques to karate students and one of the karate guys says, "what if I resist?" Nothing the poor guy could do worked against resistance. Now the arguement becomes, "oh, you need to attack with intent" or "normally I would hit you first" etc." but the unfortunate reality is that after spending a long, long time studying, their martial art is not effective. Aikido works for smaller people against bigger people and for weaker people against stronger if it is trained the way Ueshiba and Tohei taught it. The techniques can be trained slowly and against resistance. I know that because this is the way we train Aikido and it is the same way I teach my karate guys how to do the same techniques. If you can make your technique work slowly against resistance it will work in real life where it is normally applied faster and against less resistance as in a committed attack.

In a previous thread, I was taken to task for suggesting someone trying out an Aikido school should ask the guys at the proposed school to demonstrate their techniques against resistance without causing physical damage. I still maintain, a good instructor should be able to do that, an ordinary one won't.
:asian:

 

[Coker101]

Depends on what you call Ki. People have different understanding of Ki. Most people can cope with the understanding of hard Ki. We all have it and we all train it without having to think about it. Soft Ki is totally different. To my mind Koichi Tohei was the guru. He wanted to pass on what he had learned and was forced into a position where he had to leave the Ueshiba organisation (Aikikai) and set up his own. If you come across someone who can demonstrate soft Ki, and I'm not referring to folks like the 'Ki Master' that people throw up every time Ki is discussed, sign up and start learning. It will change your understanding totally.

Many Aikido schools teach that you never resist. You learn to receive and in doing so the 'Ki starts to flow' and there is harmonisation. The problem then arises, as happened in my school years back, where an experienced Aikidoka comes to teach Aikido techniques to karate students and one of the karate guys says, "what if I resist?" Nothing the poor guy could do worked against resistance. Now the arguement becomes, "oh, you need to attack with intent" or "normally I would hit you first" etc." but the unfortunate reality is that after spending a long, long time studying, their martial art is not effective. Aikido works for smaller people against bigger people and for weaker people against stronger if it is trained the way Ueshiba and Tohei taught it. The techniques can be trained slowly and against resistance. I know that because this is the way we train Aikido and it is the same way I teach my karate guys how to do the same techniques. If you can make your technique work slowly against resistance it will work in real life where it is normally applied faster and against less resistance as in a committed attack.

In a previous thread, I was taken to task for suggesting someone trying out an Aikido school should ask the guys at the proposed school to demonstrate their techniques against resistance without causing physical damage. I still maintain, a good instructor should be able to do that, an ordinary one won't.
:asian:

Ok so let me see here. So in your experience would you say that Aikido is only beneficial for smaller and weaker people? And only if they have trained in a more realistic/against resistance way?

See I'm not small...I'm a fairly big guys at 6' 200+ lbs (not massive and not small but big I guess). And while I'm not all muscle I'm not weak either.

If I were to get into a situation I would not lean on Aikido unless I found myself in a situation where I had an opening to do so. Otherwise in all honesty I would look to smash a face with my fist as a first option. In my experience trying to intercept a strike is way to difficult and obviously they are not going to wait for you to do what you do.

However I have seen a lot of fights where two get in close and try to hold the others arm to keep them from punching the other in the face. In a situation like that it would seem like Aikido would have an upper hand for sure. But I have not trained in Aikido so I'm just going off of what I have seen.

Your opinion please. I could always try out the class but I like hearing from unbiased people first hand.

Thanks for the replies.

 

[K-man]

Ok so let me see here. So in your experience would you say that Aikido is only beneficial for smaller and weaker people? And only if they have trained in a more realistic/against resistance way?

Not at all. I'm not small or weak either but with the aikido techniques you don't have to use strength to perform techniques or resist techniques. So in theory a 5'6" 145lb female would be capable of handling a much larger male attacker. In practice there is a lot more to it than that which is why effective aikido takes longer to learn than a more simple striking art.

See I'm not small...I'm a fairly big guys at 6' 200+ lbs (not massive and not small but big I guess). And while I'm not all muscle I'm not weak either.

A lot of aikido I see relies on strength and speed. In that case the bigger and stronger you are, the more effective you will be. However, for most of us there will always be someone bigger, stronger and faster. At that time your aikido will fail if that is the criteria on which you rely. Once you learn to use 'soft', bigger, stronger, faster is much less important.

If I were to get into a situation I would not lean on Aikido unless I found myself in a situation where I had an opening to do so. Otherwise in all honesty I would look to smash a face with my fist as a first option. In my experience trying to intercept a strike is way to difficult and obviously they are not going to wait for you to do what you do.

I would like to think that I am on the other side of the mountain where the striking would now be secondary unless a weapon was involved but only time would tell and hopefully I will never find out. (Same mountain, just a different path to the top.)

However I have seen a lot of fights where two get in close and try to hold the others arm to keep them from punching the other in the face. In a situation like that it would seem like Aikido would have an upper hand for sure. But I have not trained in Aikido so I'm just going off of what I have seen.

Certainly that is the case, but if you resort to strength, the stronger person will normally prevail. It is really hard for someone who is naturally strong to use 'soft' because as soon as you feel that something is not working the natural instinct is to fall back to your strength instead of redirecting the resisting force. There is a lot of training required to get to the stage where things work without effort.

Your opinion please. I could always try out the class but I like hearing from unbiased people first hand.

Lol! Not sure that I am unbiased. Aikido is a wonderful art if taught well. Go try out the class regardless.

Thanks for the replies.

:asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ok so let me see here. So in your experience would you say that Aikido is only beneficial for smaller and weaker people? And only if they have trained in a more realistic/against resistance way?

See I'm not small...I'm a fairly big guys at 6' 200+ lbs (not massive and not small but big I guess). And while I'm not all muscle I'm not weak either.

If I were to get into a situation I would not lean on Aikido unless I found myself in a situation where I had an opening to do so. Otherwise in all honesty I would look to smash a face with my fist as a first option. In my experience trying to intercept a strike is way to difficult and obviously they are not going to wait for you to do what you do.

However I have seen a lot of fights where two get in close and try to hold the others arm to keep them from punching the other in the face. In a situation like that it would seem like Aikido would have an upper hand for sure. But I have not trained in Aikido so I'm just going off of what I have seen.

Your opinion please. I could always try out the class but I like hearing from unbiased people first hand.

Thanks for the replies.

I am not an Aikido person so take this for what it is worth

Aikido is only beneficial for smaller and weaker people? No, my daughters Sensei is 6 foot tall not all that weak and damn good

And only if they have trained in a more realistic/against resistance way? Yes, just find a good Aikido school

The thing is you are not always trying to intercept the strike you are trying to avoid it, you may be able to intercept it, you may be able to block it or you may simply just be able to get out of the way of it.

 

[Coker101]

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I guess depending on the situation I might not smash a face. That would only be IF I could avoid it without getting hurt. But it would seem that depending 100% on Aikido would be really difficult. Maybe if I got to a point where I had that confidence I would see it differently.

 

[Coker101]

Here is the only other Aikido school that could be an option.

http://www.clearcreekaikido.com/index.php

It's Tomiki-ryu Aikido which I know nothing about at all.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

trained in a more realistic/against resistance way?

There are different reasons to train with non-resisted opponent vs. to train with resisted opponent. When your opponent attack you, you borrow his force,

- and take him down in the same direction as he is moving, that's single technique development training.
- he resists, you borrow his resisted force, and take him down in the opposite direction, that's combo technique development training.

Both training are needed.

 

[K-man]

Here is the only other Aikido school that could be an option.

http://www.clearcreekaikido.com/index.php

It's Tomiki-ryu Aikido which I know nothing about at all.

Tomiki was one of Ueshiba's students who chose a slightly different path. He added a competitive element to his training. Personally, that style is not for me but once again, give it a try, see what they have to offer you. Remember, Aikido is a long haul MA. A little time checking out at this time will pay in spades later.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

There are different reasons to train with non-resisted opponent vs. to train with resisted opponent. When your opponent attack you, you borrow his force,

- and take him down in the same direction as he is moving, that's single technique development training.
- he resists, you borrow his resisted force, and take him down in the opposite direction, that's combo technique development training.

Both training are needed.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that you resist when you are utilising Aikido. What I am suggesting is that a good Aikidoka can overcome resistance with no effort utilising the principle you describe. Training not to resist is training to receive and is important for many reasons. But training with a compliant partner does not test your Aikido skills and people can get a very false sense of their ability. Most Aikido people I have met look great with a compliant partner, but it starts to unravel when they meet resistance unless they are properly trained.

Hence my my comment that I would not bother training in a school that could not demonstrate the ability to perform their techniques slowly and safely against a resisting opponent.
:asian:

 

[Coker101]

Tomiki was one of Ueshiba's students who chose a slightly different path. He added a competitive element to his training. Personally, that styles not for me but once again, give it a try, see what they have to offer you. Remember, Aikido is a long haul MA. A little time checking out at this time will pay in spades later.
:asian:

I did a little search and it looks like he added a good bit of judo and they tend to be a little more aggressive. Thats what's I picked up in 5 minutes of reading. I trained in judo when I was very young...I could see how one could benefit from the other.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but it starts to unravel when they meet resistance unless they are properly trained.

Many years ago, an Aikido black belt friend of mine came to visit me in Austin, Texas. It happened that there was a Karate tournament in town that day. We both put gloves on and fought in that Karate tournament. Few weeks later, my friend was kicked out of his Aikido association.

There is difference between "skill developing" and "skill testing".

You use

1. non-resisted partner to "develop" your solo skill.
2. resisted partner to "develop" your combo skill.
3. resisted partner to "test" your over all skill.

The difference between 2 and 3 is in

- 2, you know exactly what your opponent is going to do.
- 3, you don't know what your opponent is going to do.

Since Aikido system doesn't have tournament, the "testing" 3 is not available.

 

[Chris Parker]

Trying to decide what to train and have always been curious about Aikido. You guys who have trained please tell me what you think based off of what you see here please.

Site http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/index.html

Instructors http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/instructor.html

Videos http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/videos.html

Thanks

Here is another option.

http://www.bayareacenter.net/

Instructors http://www.bayareacenter.net/index.php?src=gendocs&ref=StaffDirectory&category=Main

They are under http://www.aaa-aikido.com/founder.htm

Here is the only other Aikido school that could be an option.

http://www.clearcreekaikido.com/index.php

It's Tomiki-ryu Aikido which I know nothing about at all.

Visit the schools. See if you like them/like the instructor and group. Outside opinions mean little to nothing next to that. We can tell you about the history of each organisation (to a general degree), but that's it. You want to know what that school is like? Go visit them.