Question about grabbing guns in self defense

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Originally posted by Zujitsuka
Good day everyone.

GOD forbid that I'm faced with a gun weilding attacker. Hopefully I will be alert enough to not let someone get the drop on me or be able to take cover and get out of Dodge.

I have seen live and video taped demos where the defender grabbed a semi auto claiming that if you grab the upper receiver securely, you will prevent the gun from firing because it wasn't able to slide back.

Is this true?

What about grabbing the cylinder of a revolver?

Thanks in advance.

A friend of mine who is one of our black belts and is also in the navy has addressed this issue to classes on numerous occasions.
Gripping the cylinder of a revolver tightly enough should stop it rotating, but holding the slide of a semi-auto is a good way to burn your hand. Some people claim you can hold the slide forward from the back. This is a great way to break or lose a thumb.
The only safe way I know to hold the weapon itself is to jam a finger BEHIND the trigger, or place the web of your hand, between thumb and first finger in front of the hammer.

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

 

[yilisifu]

That's right...it's what I described a few replies back....

 

[lhommedieu]

The only safe way I know to hold the weapon itself is to jam a finger BEHIND the trigger, or place the web of your hand, between thumb and first finger in front of the hammer.

The Secret Service agent who stopped John Hinkley from firing his weapon (after the first shots had been fired) at President Reagan jammed the web of his hand, between thumb and first finger, in front of the hammer - as he had been trained. He did this while Hinkley was firing, which is pretty impressive if you think about it.

With respect to jamming the gun and preventing it from firing by interfering with the slide mechanism of an automatic weapon, I would like to make a few comments:

1. It certainly can work; there is an extremely good chance that it won't work, and that you will get your hand damaged while trying it. Now your hand is damaged and you have less chance of retaining control of the weapon the second time around.

2. Focus should be on getting your body away from the barrel of the gun and on retaining control of the weapon at all costs. Generally this means disabling and controlling the gunman so than he/she cannot fire their weapon at you. Most effective gun controls that I have seen involve doing damage to the trigger finger, wrist, or elbow while getting off-line, and then staying off-line and retaining control of the weapon while following up with more attacks to the opponent until they are unable to fire the weapon.

3. Getting the person to commit to coming within arm's length is essential. If their weapon is not well within the reach of both your arms you will not achieve control of the weapon and you should not try.

4. When to try? When you are certain that your life will be over if you don't. In today's day and age, a lot of people will think nothing about ending your life even if you comply with their demands.


Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[redfive]

People are missing the point of grabing the slide or barrel. Its not to jam the gun or create a miss fire. Like I said many many posts ago it is done to take the gun away. And none of these hammer grabbers have adresses the fact on, what are you going to grab on a glock or a hammerless revolver?. I'll answer that for you. Your going to grab the the slide or the barrel and you are going to redirect it and take it away. If it fires so what , your out of the way. If it jams fine, you still have the gun. But you have to grab it like you mean it, not like a wussy. Again this is done while throwing low line kicks to the legs and useing other distractions.

The reason you do this is that if you grab the wrist alone, the opponent will simply switch the gun to his other hand, like any five year old would do. Or he is going to take his empty hand and smash you in the face with it.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

 

[yilisifu]

I think it goes without saying that one would rely on redirecting the weapon if it has an internal hammer.

I would also say that the odds of the enemy striking you with his free hand are pretty slim because his attention is focused on the hand which holds the weapon and also because one's strikes should be making contact at almost the same time that you redirect the weapon.

 

[redfive]

I think worst case scenarios. What would I do if someone tried to grab my gun, I would break there jaw. So when I work with my friends with REAL GUNS with Loaded blanks. I have them counter to the best of there ability. THen you see what disarms realy work and which look realy cool in th movies. You feel the recoil of the slide when the gun goes off, yet your hand is still on the gun and the gun has not rechambered and it has a stove top jam on it. But again you dont care about that becouse you just disarmed him.
Know you can focus on clearing his weapon of the jam and preparing to return fire with it or you can draw your own weapon, for which you know better and can depend on.
To end this I will say that in the end who cares how you get the gun away, as long as you do and you dont shoot any by standers in the progress. There are better ways to take a gun away and there are worst ways. Try them all and you will see. But doing it on a plastic or rubber gun only is not the way. Train like you fight, and fight like you train, and that is for real.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

 

[Patty]

I study hapkido and a number of my teachers are law enforcement professionals and trainers. One of the reasons they like hapkido are the gun/knife disarming tactics. I've only seen them enacted once and couldn't begin to describe them, but they're actually very simple and highly effective. Remember, these are techniques that these people use pretty regularly - they have to work. Contact me if you can't find more info on this and I'll see if they will either reenact these scenarios so I can write them down, or if they'll give me a reference that I can forward.:asian:

 

[Kope]

Originally posted by redfive

My group trains with live weapons, with home loaded blanks.
/B]

The words TOTALLY *DELETED PROFANITY* MORONIC ACT just spring to mind . . .

Blanks, even home loaded ones, can cause serious injury, and even death. This is a good way to get really really hurt for no good reason.

As to the original question -- it depends on the make and model of the weapon and it's state (loaded or not, cocked or not, etc.). Basically, the correct answer is "sometimes."

 

[Tigertron]

Originally posted by Kope
The words TOTALLY *DELETED PROFANITY* MORONIC ACT just spring to mind . . .

Blanks, even home loaded ones, can cause serious injury, and even death. This is a good way to get really really hurt for no good reason.

As to the original question -- it depends on the make and model of the weapon and it's state (loaded or not, cocked or not, etc.). Basically, the correct answer is "sometimes."

ROFL!!!!!!

Does anyone remember how Brando Lee died?

 

[Tigertron]

Don't waste your time worrying about where to grap on the gun. The Israelis have learned through numerous deadly encounters with terrorists, that you should deflect the gun away from you and IF NOT CONCURRENTLY, THEN IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW UP, with a strike to the terrorist's nerve centers. Nerve centers being the eyes, throat, solar plexus, groin, knee, shin etc. That COUNTER STRIKE is the key. It stuns the CNS (central nervous system) and disrupt the terrorist's ability to continue the attack. Then, you can think about taking the gun away from him.

 

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by Tigertron
Don't waste your time worrying about where to grap on the gun. The Israelis have learned through numerous deadly encounters with terrorists, that you should deflect the gun away from you and IF NOT CONCURRENTLY, THEN IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW UP, with a strike to the terrorist's nerve centers. Nerve centers being the eyes, throat, solar plexus, groin, knee, shin etc. That COUNTER STRIKE is the key. It stuns the CNS (central nervous system) and disrupt the terrorist's ability to continue the attack. Then, you can think about taking the gun away from him.

I couldn't agree more; hence my comments (on Pg. 2 of this thread):

"Focus should be on getting your body away from the barrel of the gun and on retaining control of the weapon at all costs. Generally this means disabling and controlling the gunman so than he/she cannot fire their weapon at you. Most effective gun controls that I have seen involve doing damage to the trigger finger, wrist, or elbow while getting off-line, and then staying off-line and retaining control of the weapon while following up with more attacks to the opponent until they are unable to fire the weapon."

The "Secrets of Professional Warriors" series did a pretty good job demonstrating the pros and cons of different gun disarms. The instructors donned protective gear and used wax bullets to find out what worked and what didn't. Emphasis on the tapes is more on retaining control on the weapon with joint locks (after clearing the line of fire) than on striking after control has been achieved. Presumably they''re good at joint destruction.

They claim that clearing the weapon to the inside results in much poorer results than clearing the weapon to the outside; hence their preference for techniques that clear the weapon to the outside.

This seems to be a safe way of testing the efficacy of gun disarms than using blanks. Maybe a paintball gun is another alternative (providing that you wear heavy protective gear as per above). Water guns and red Kool-Aid would probably be a little slow.

Re. the instructors' claim that outside clears are better than inside clears: I agree up to a point. I think it varies by individual according to how well they have trained the hand movement to occur simultaneously with the body movement. One of my teachers effectively (and consistently) clears the weapon to the inside while moving his body to the outside.

One factor that has not been stated much is the possiblily of by-stander injury while clearing the weapon. If my wife is standing to the inside of the weapon, then if I clear it I will clear it to the outside ...

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[redfive]

Well I may be a Moronic individual, but like I said earlier: " I train like I fight, and I fight like I train. And that is for real."
Yes we use blanks and alot of times we use the military or police simunitions. I do not train with incompetent people. And for the record Brandon Lee did not die becouse of the blank load. he died becouse of the bullet head that was left in the barrel by the squib that was used in the prior shot. It was then dejected by the blank. Becouse people where incompetent not to first check the weapon. We have several safe guards we go through. I have faith in my disarms as well.
What I do is Combative CQC training, not ballroom dancing.
I wont even go into how we do knife disarming. But if you never try the real thing, then how can you begin to tell others this is how you do it, no no this is how you do it, not that way.
so if the best you have done is a plastic water gun from isle six at Walmart, dont even begin to tell me how, or this works and this doesnt.
You dont just jump into it, you start with replicas and plastic or wooden knives then you work your way up.

Martial training is a dangerous business, but not as dangerous as the real thing. The better prepared you are, the better your odds.
So if its not you cup of tea, fine. Stay in your airconditioned dojos with your nice padded floors and all your wooden, and flimzey metel sword and knives and have fun. During your breaks you can play cowboys and indians with your little wooded and plastic guns, and leave the real training to real fighters.

Your Moronic friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

 

[lhommedieu]

...if you never try the real thing, then how can you begin to tell others this is how you do it, no no this is how you do it, not that way.
so if the best you have done is a plastic water gun from isle six at Walmart, dont even begin to tell me how, or this works and this doesnt.

Uh, that was a joke .

Trying the "real thing" would be to use live amunition. I'll go to the end of line, thank you anyway. I was merely pointing out that simunitions make some kind of contact, (hopefully on armor.)

Best of luck on your continuing martial arts training.

Steve Lamade

 

[redfive]

And the end of the line is where you will always be, and that by the way equals last. Hopefully that will not be the way you end up in a real situation.
Everyone trains differently for different reasons. To each his own. And by the way we dont do it naked. We do wear protection, but THEY ARE NOT REAL ROUNDS. The point is that your are redirecting and grabing a real weapon and gitting to feal, hear and see what may happen in a real situation. Sorry for injecting a little bit of reality and realistic aproach. By the way we do it under different Scenarios, like ambush situations and carjackings and from behind.
But I'm sure that will piss someone else of too. Most people do the disarms by having some poor sap stand infront of them and hold the gun out in aloose grip, while you snatch it away and quickly hand it back to them. Do your reps and then go home.
Sorry, not me

Redfive
ps. dont forget to practice rifle and shotgun defence too. With and without a sling.

 

[lhommedieu]

And the end of the line is where you will always be, and that by the way equals last.

Redfive,

I think that you should actually read my posts and think about what you think I mean before you fire off a reply. The logical implication of your response is that you would be "first in line" for training gun disarms with live amunition. We both know that isn't so, so why waste time debating a non-issue?

I've responded to the issue of grabbing the slide during gun disarms by making a few points based on my experience (limited as it may be) and I think that I have done so in a respectful manner. The general tone of your points has been rude and intolerant towards anyone who does not train exactly the way that you do - irrespective of the merits of their arguments, which you do not bother to address. You seem to lack a sense of humor, as well.

I am happy that your reality-based training has taken you places that few on this forum have been able to visit. Good luck on the anger management classes, BTW.

Steve Lamade

 

[Kope]

Originally posted by redfive
Well I may be a Moronic individual

I didn't say that. I said the act was moronic. Smart people do stupid things all the time.

Originally posted by redfive
" I train like I fight, and I fight like I train. And that is for real."

By your own admission, that's not the case. You are using blanks -- a consideration I doubt many "real" attackers will extend to you.

Originally posted by redfive
I do not train with incompetent people.

No one said you did. And that's really immaterial to the questions of the responsibleness of your training method.

Originally posted by redfive
And for the record Brandon Lee did not die becouse of the blank load. he died becouse of the bullet head that was left in the barrel by the squib that was used in the prior shot. It was then dejected by the blank. Becouse people where incompetent not to first check the weapon.

It's very easy to declare people incompetent and compare them to yourself. It's much harder to back that up. In general, stunt people are highly competent, professional people who are well aware of the necessary safeguards. That people who are in general highly competent and aware of necessary safety measures had this accident happen anyway should give you pause to think about your own methods.

Originally posted by redfive
We have several safe guards we go through. I have faith in my disarms as well.

Great. Lots of people have died having full faith in the safeguards in place and their abilities in the past. That you are willing to take such unnecessary risks says something, but may not be what you want it to be.

Originally posted by redfive
What I do is Combative CQC training, not ballroom dancing.

Realistic training is possible with less risk than you are incurring.

Originally posted by redfive
Martial training is a dangerous business, but not as dangerous as the real thing. The better prepared you are, the better your odds.
So if its not you cup of tea, fine. Stay in your airconditioned dojos with your nice padded floors and all your wooden, and flimzey metel sword and knives and have fun. During your breaks you can play cowboys and indians with your little wooded and plastic guns, and leave the real training to real fighters.

Your Moronic friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive [/B]

Your attitude is wonderfully dismissive and egotistical. It goes a long way towards demonstrating exactly what sort of people to avoid when one wants to do serious training. Obviously you know more than anyone else 'cause you're so tough and we're all worthless and weak.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

How many people have ever had a real loaded gun pointed at them ?

And also how many people have ever had to deal with a real loaded gun pointed at them in a real situation ?


Chicago Green
Dragon :asian:

 

[Kope]

How many people have ever had a real loaded gun pointed at them ?

Well, various studies using various methodologies put defensive gun use in the USA at between 1 and 4 million a year. So, probably more people than you'd first guess.

And also how many people have ever had to deal with a real loaded gun pointed at them in a real situation ?

I'm not sure how this is a different question.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Well when I was first asking it could have been practicing with a load gun situation or anything else besides a hold up or attack.

The second question was directed at being in a situation where you are being attacked for real.


Chicago Green
Dragon :asian: