So in any case, I thought I should post this on the chance.....

[Andy Moynihan]

........................however slight, that it might help someone.

Funny since it came out of a purely fun-related discussion. a friend and I were having an MSN chat and he had asked me and another person about rule changes to a rolepleying game to make it more realistic, the mechanics in question being use of firearms in close quarters and how much chance would an unarmed guy *really* have?

More than you think, if they know the right things. But compare the number of people in the world who know them with those who don't and it's like trying to find a needle in a stack of needles.

SO--while I'm not one of those firearms instructorswho makes their living off teaching these particular things, after talking with my friend I reasoned that, given that a large percentage of the posters here may live in locations where it's more likely that if they find themselves facing a gun they'll be unarmed, and that if something I knew could help them through that experience alive, then I should share what I could.

So here goes.

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OK. The first thing I need to make clear is that everything I say here is based on one thing: that YOU HAVE MADE A DECISION: This person can, and is going to, drop the hammer, shoot, and you have DECIDED to do everything you can to stop him, and so these are offered on the theory that being shot while trying a desperate move Beats the hell out of being shot while trying nothing at all, so here you go:
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In the case of a modern double action revolver:

It can be rendered inoperable by clamping down hard on the cylinder, precluding the necessary rotation of the cylinder/raising of hammer prior to firing. if it is already cocked, or is a single action revolver already cocked, you *could* jam the web of your hand into the space between the hammer and firing pin, but you will have to determine for yourself if you have that fine of a nervous control under adrenaline stress. Otherwise you still can clamp the cylinder but get the muzzle in a direction where no one including bystanders will be shot when the first shot goes off, and the rest of the cylinder is now useless as long as you keep it clamped and you can at this point do anything else you need to as your training so inclines.

In the case of a modern semiautomatic pistol:

It can be rendered inoperable by grabbing the top of the slide assembly and racking it back even a fraction of an inch, which will unlock the breech and disconnect the trigger. If you cannot do this, simply clamp the slide and dustcover assembly(the whole front of the barrel all around--in fact on smaller compact autos like the Walther PPK, Sig P232 or Glock 26 this may be your only choice) together and as above, get the muzzle in a direction where no one including bystanders will be shot when the first shot goes off, and the rest of the magazine is now useless until the slide is racked again which you will, i trust, not permit him to do. you can at this point do anything else you need to as your training so inclines.

.(See this is the other benefit of being a firearms instructor--by learning how firearms work, by extension you also learn how to make them NOT work)

Hope this helps someone

Andy

 

[fnorfurfoot]

I am not a gun person. I have a handful of techniques for disarming and such. I was wondering, if the gun goes off while you are holding it they way you described, will you get burnt?

 

[Dark]

Its possible...

 

[Andy Moynihan]

*Nods* It's possible, if you don't rack the slide back on the semi or clamp the cylinder on an uncocked revolver. Especially if you don't hold the slide group on the semi tight if you clamp it without racking. . But in the type of situation I was talking about where you'd even need to try this at all, that beats the alternative. *shrug*

 

[fnorfurfoot]

Absolutely, just figure it is better to know than to get a surprise that might affect my performance during the fight.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Edited to address details needed.

 

[Lisa]

Interesting theory. Would take very quick reflexes and, as stated, excellent control of the adrenalin already flowing through your body, precision timing and application.

I can't imagine jamming my hand between the firing pin and the hammer, very small precise area to aim at. Not only that, wouldn't it hurt when the hammer comes down?

If it worked great, if it didn't, not so great.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Interesting theory. Would take very quick reflexes and, as stated, excellent control of the adrenalin already flowing through your body, precision timing and application.

Yep. I've tried to take great pains to qualify what I said, since I've heard people go on about disarms like they were * just that easy* ( if it was, nobody'd pull guns on you*shrug*) as if they were superman or something. It don't work that way.

I can't imagine jamming my hand between the firing pin and the hammer, very small precise area to aim at. Not only that, wouldn't it hurt when the hammer comes down?

Yep. Fortunately most revolvers nowadays are kept in the double action mode and not often cocked prior to firing.

If it worked great, if it didn't, not so great.

Indeed.

 

[Dark]

I used to put surplus flak vest on people and have them disarm my blank gun, the idea bang and the pressure against their body is enough to scare them, but it trains the adrinoline response situation nicely.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Next best thing to Simunition.

 

[Explorer]

If the light is right you can look at the front of the cylinder of a wheel gun to see if it's even loaded. You could be facing a really expensive club!

Something else to point out is that action usually beats reaction. If you move first, you have a chance at this.

We use a disarm that involves simultaneously grabbing the gun (at the aforemetntioned points) and striking the inside of the wrist. The wrist collapses in and we lever the gun out and back. You may have seen kata that show the heels of your hands together with fingers extended ... then they rotate ... then you punch. To us, it's a gun disarm. It can be very quick. In one demonstration one of my assistants disarmed a guy who didn't realize, at first, the gun was gone. When Mike showed it to him he kept looking back and forth from the gun to his hand. Priceless.

Great topic.

 

[Drac]

if the gun goes off while you are holding it they way you described, will you get burnt?

Possible plus you'l have to deal with the noise that will shock your ears and the muzzle flash which may temporary blind you..

 

[MJS]

Great thread and some great advice so far! I agree that getting control should be first and foremost. Many of the methods that were mentioned in the initial post, are along the same ideas that KM uses in their disarms.

Mike

 

[celtic_crippler]

I was wondering, if the gun goes off while you are holding it they way you described, will you get burnt?

Powder burns? Probably....would you rather be shot?

One thing I've noticed missing from this thread is in order for any defense to work the attacker would have to be within arms reach.

I can't speak for everyone, but American Kenpo teaches several techniques regarding gun disarms. All entail the above concepts on wear to grab particular guns for maximum efficiency.

The paper-wads contained in 'blanks' can be very dangerous and have actually killed people in the past. For more realistic practice I would recommend a paint ball gun instead...if your'e going to use anything that emmits a projectile anyway.... might as well reduce the risk as much as possible.
IMHO

 

[Drac]

Powder burns?

I knew I forgot one...Thanks...

 

[fnorfurfoot]

By some of your responses, I'm getting the impression that you are thinking that I am afraid of the "burns." Not the case. I have a very high pain threshold. I just want to know what to expect if the situation ever came up.

When I am wrestling with my dog, I expect to get scratched, either by his teeth or claws. It doesn't bother me. Same with getting hit in class. It's expected. But when something surprises me, like a paper cut or brushing my hand against the inside of the oven, I jerk my hand back like most people would. I don't want that happening while I am dealing with an attacker because I wasn't prepared.

 

[Flying Crane]

By some of your responses, I'm getting the impression that you are thinking that I am afraid of the "burns." Not the case. I have a very high pain threshold. I just want to know what to expect if the situation ever came up.

Pain threshold will be different for everyone, and will vary based on experience. While I like the ideas expressed here, I would suggest that getting powder burns, while better than taking a bullet, could cause you to flinch and lose control of the weapon. Then the guy gets a second chance to shoot you. Just a cautionary thought.

 

[Dark]

But when something surprises me, like a paper cut or brushing my hand against the inside of the oven, I jerk my hand back like most people would. I don't want that happening while I am dealing with an attacker because I wasn't prepared.

It will still surprise you anyway, just train yourself the push and not pull, that way you will either maintain grip or push the weapon away with your flitch. And remember the golden rule of fencing: Attack the swordsman and not the sword. Grab and hit him/her at the same time, this means you may have to take a punch as well but not likely

 

[still learning]

Hello, Just want to add to this....Most guys will be surprise and maybe shock by the noise of the gun going off. Be aware of this.

Plus the barrel of the gun will be hot as the bullet leaves the gun. Expect some very high heat from the gun as you grab it.

Many times more than one shot can be taken...just be prepare in your mind if you are fighing the attacker with the gun.

If more than 10 feet away, it is possible to run zag-zag and not get hit by the bullet, (pistols).

If you do take a bullet? ..UM ....don't give it back? Not sure what to add here? ...........Aloha