Pyung Ahn Cho Dan Question

[styles]

Hi - new poster here.

I found your home searching on "Pyung Ahn Cho Dan" discussion forums and I have specific questions:

Are the four closing double low knife-hand blocks out of the back stance or the tiger stance?

I have seen TSD'ers do Pyung Ahn Cho Dan both ways (even on the videos posted in these fora), but I think Shotokan Heian Cho Dan is out of the back stance only.

If this is a difference, would this be a difference between TSD and Shotokan, a difference in TSD styles, or something else?

The reason for my question is innocent - to learn. I apologize in advance if this has been covered extensively. I did some searches and found various related posts, but nothing definitive.

Regards and success to all.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is a thread containing a video of the hyung...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32216

The double low knifehands are done in hu gul jaseh. The shotokan version is the same in this respect.

Welcome to the Forum BTW!!!! You should go to the Meet and Greet section and introduce yourself.

I'm glad to have another TSD practicioner around...

 

[styles]

Ok. That's what I *thought*, but I see some (and I think mine is) that look like they are in Tiger instead of Cat. I have no video of my own to show. I was watching the Shotokan video and went 'oh that looks different' and started noticing this and got confused.

If you can look at this video maybe you can tell me if you see my confusion?

I'm seeing something, but not sure why or what it is. To me, it seems like his lead foot heel is up (1st link) and he is on the ball of the lead foot only.
http://www.cnttsda.co.uk/video/new/secure/DSCF0001.AVI

In the shotokan (2nd link) it definitely is not up.
http://www.natkd.com/movies/Forms/Shotokan/HeianShodan.mpeg

This is also flat.
http://domartialarts.com/ma/vid/PY1Rico.wmv

This also looks like the heel is down to me, but with the grass it might not be.
http://www.natkd.com/movies/Forms/Pyong_An_Forms/pyungahn1.wmv

In the link you posted I can't tell for sure either, but I thought your heel was up the first time I saw it. And the step looks similar to the 1st link. Maybe you're doing something else that I am not aware of that is tricking my eyes.

Many thanks. Many times many if you can sort this out! LOL

I might meet and greet, but to be honest some of those General Discussions were not for me. ;-)

I realize the best answer is to get back with a teacher. It's been 18 years since I was a practitioner at an informal, Christian MA school. I hurt my back recently and started doing old stretches, which lead to poses, which lead to forms ...

 

[DuneViking]

Greetings and welcome!

What you have to remember is 5 masters can show you 5 different ways. We do this form in a back stance. I have seen other clubs do the last 4 moves as simple double knifehand blocks, not low. I have also seen other variations of the form from the way we do it. Best thing to do is ask your instructor and why its done that way.

 

[karatekid1975]

I agree. When I learned Pyung ahn cho dan (if I'm remembering correctly), we did it in cat stance (heel up). But I have also seen people at tournies do that move in back stance. I was puzzled also. So, it's best to ask your instructor.

 

[styles]

Thanks! I appreciate both of your feedback.

I do need to find a good instructor. I am surrounded by TKD schools that teach WTF from the Taegueks. Arg! ;-)

 

[Zepp]

I realize I'm a bit late replying to this thread, but I thought I'd point out that in the World TKD Assoc., where we practice the Pyong-ahn forms, we use a back stance for those knife-hand blocks. In fact, we pretty much never use a cat stance for anything. I'm told that that is because it is considered a naturally "weak" stance.

 

[Makalakumu]

None of this makes any sense unless you understand the applications. The difference between "cat" and "back" stance is profound. Hugul Jaseh "cat" stance has the heel up because it is indicating a possible front kick. "Back" stance (which is a stance that I have only ever seen in TKD schools) shifts the weight too far forward and makes kicking difficult. I would say that if you do the hyung with "back" stance, then there is no kick.

IMO that is too bad, because a front kick really is the perfect follow up technique.

 

[Sipsoo Dragon]

Hi group,

Just want to put my two pennies worth in here.

I was taught and still teach the hyung in a back stance (fighting stance) with the heel raised slightly. Again I was taught the difference between the back stance and the cat stance is the length of the stance with the cat stance being narrower.

You can view the video in fact all hyungs up to 4th Dan on our website.

Pil Seung!!

Sar Bum Nim Ken Nessworthy
http://www.shinson-tsd.com

 

[Makalakumu]

I was taught and still teach the hyung in a back stance (fighting stance) with the heel raised slightly. Again I was taught the difference between the back stance and the cat stance is the length of the stance with the cat stance being narrower.

Sometimes, trying to interpret what terms like "cat" and "back" stances mean between styles is difficult. I've noticed that TKD often uses a completely different stance for "back" stance for example. In TSD the difference is described with korean terminology. "Back" stance is hu gul jaseh and "Cat" stance is bom jaseh.

These are just words however, the real difference is in how it changes the applications.

If we are going to change the stance from hu gul jaseh to bom jaseh, then the form is going to have more retreating applications with less engagement of the hips with those of your opponents. It becomes a "stick and move" form.

 

[styles]

Thanks for the later follow-ups. I've been busy, but did eventually check back on the thread. Thanks to all for furthering my understanding.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Sometimes, trying to interpret what terms like "cat" and "back" stances mean between styles is difficult. I've noticed that TKD often uses a completely different stance for "back" stance for example. In TSD the difference is described with korean terminology. "Back" stance is hu gul jaseh and "Cat" stance is bom jaseh.

These are just words however, the real difference is in how it changes the applications.

If we are going to change the stance from hu gul jaseh to bom jaseh, then the form is going to have more retreating applications with less engagement of the hips with those of your opponents. It becomes a "stick and move" form.

Thanks for the clear-up. I always prefer to use the Korean terminology for stances, for that very reason. I've actually never heard of a "cat" stance, and only know that hugul jase is also called "back" stance through hearing it elsewhere, since we (at my school) call it "fighting stance" in English. That said, I'm still not sure I understand exactly what bom jaseh is. Similar to sa go rip jaseh (like the beginning of jinte, yuk soo kong kyuk, etc, if I spelled it wrong)?

styles: In reference to those videos, this is what gets me frustrated sometimes. There are some genuinely good practioners out there who do videos with great (albeit sometimes different to me) forms, and then there are people like Master McHenry, who I wouldn't trust to teach me gicho hyung il bu, from the videos I've seen of him (he makes me laugh).

To echo what everyone else has said, the low knife-hand blocks are done from hugul jase. Sometimes, if I'm lazy, I'll forget to have my heel up (flat feet don't help either), but that's the way it should be, since you want to have 90% of your weight on your back foot (if not more).

I'd take the time to point out several of the glaring screwups that the TSD people, in the videos you've posted, make in this form (which I'm certain can't be attributed to stylistic difference), but that might take me a bit too far into rant territory.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

For some reason, the edit box isn't appearing, so I'll post this as a new post...

I found an *excellent* video on YouTube for the Shotokan equivalent of pyung ahn cho dan, heian shodan. It's credited to "K. Nakaya," and it's old b&w, but the video quality is still watchable. After he performs the form (which is almost exactly pyong ahn cho dan), there's a short sequence where he performs it again, this time with attackers. This is the kind of video I like seeing, even if it isn't TSD.

Here it is:

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Hi group,

Just want to put my two pennies worth in here.

I was taught and still teach the hyung in a back stance (fighting stance) with the heel raised slightly. Again I was taught the difference between the back stance and the cat stance is the length of the stance with the cat stance being narrower.

You can view the video in fact all hyungs up to 4th Dan on our website.

Pil Seung!!

Sar Bum Nim Ken Nessworthy
http://www.shinson-tsd.com

Sar Bum Nim Nessworthy,
I could not acces this web site.

Where are you located?

What association are you with?

Thank you,

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Sar Bum Nim Nessworthy,
I could not acces this web site.

Where are you located?

What association are you with?

Thank you,

It looks like the site was down temporarily for updating. The videos do not want to play on my computer, however, even if I download them. Can anyone play them?

 

[Chizikunbo]

Hi - new poster here.

I found your home searching on "Pyung Ahn Cho Dan" discussion forums and I have specific questions:

Are the four closing double low knife-hand blocks out of the back stance or the tiger stance?

I have seen TSD'ers do Pyung Ahn Cho Dan both ways (even on the videos posted in these fora), but I think Shotokan Heian Cho Dan is out of the back stance only.

If this is a difference, would this be a difference between TSD and Shotokan, a difference in TSD styles, or something else?

The reason for my question is innocent - to learn. I apologize in advance if this has been covered extensively. I did some searches and found various related posts, but nothing definitive.

Regards and success to all.

I have learned these forms in the Korean, Okinawa, and Japanese way, the Korean and Okinawan both use back stance as I learned it (hu gul) the "Japanese" version I learned used jun gul (front stance).
The applications (bunsok) are very similar as I have learned it, and the jun gul only changes the application in that it has a kuzushi (off balance) factor with a trap to the opponents foot.
As far as application the basic application I teach for these is as follows.
Opponent throws a right choong dan kong kyuk you block with the chamber, and the first knife hand "block" captures the wrist, and the second is actually a lock at the elbow level, but it is hard to explain "on paper" without media (pictures or video)...
Anyway I hope that helps a little..
--josh

 

[Tlaloc]

styles: In reference to those videos, this is what gets me frustrated sometimes. There are some genuinely good practioners out there who do videos with great (albeit sometimes different to me) forms, and then there are people like Master McHenry, who I wouldn't trust to teach me gicho hyung il bu, from the videos I've seen of him (he makes me laugh).

...

I'd take the time to point out several of the glaring screwups that the TSD people, in the videos you've posted, make in this form (which I'm certain can't be attributed to stylistic difference), but that might take me a bit too far into rant territory.

My thoughts exactly! I watched all those videos and with the risk of sounding arrogant, I thought that all of them pretty much butchered pyung ahn cho dan. I REALLY liked the black and white video of heian shodan posted...