Pinan to Pyung Ahn

[Makalakumu]

And yet there is a tendency to plant our heel when punching, if we punch to shift weight through a target should we not roll onto the ball of the back foot (ala boxing). Relaxing through a punch it would make more sense to roll up on the foot! yes or no?
I apologize if we are drifting a tad

Thnks
Todd
BTW Upnorth Dude great thread

When we move forward in front stance, the back foot is connected to the floor and it transfers the force of our body. As the front foot completes its sweep into "the channel" the hips snap forward and the punch snaps out. If the articulation of the body is correct and the feet properly rooted, the tori should feel the force of the punch transfer from the fist, down the arm, into the spine, and into the foot. In order to properly do this, the back heel MUST be down, or the force of the punch will drive it down...weakening the overall structure. The principle of tension and relaxation doesn't really affect this. Bad technique, however, does.

 

[The Kai]

So you are saying that you basically push off with the back foot, and at some point the front leg takes over the effort, right? If the idea of a punch is to quickly dispalce another persons mass withthe mass of your arm and not push attacker would nor being up on the back heel help shift forward and also with a end point rotation?

Do you see where I am going

 

[Makalakumu]

So you are saying that you basically push off with the back foot, and at some point the front leg takes over the effort, right? If the idea of a punch is to quickly dispalce another persons mass withthe mass of your arm and not push attacker would nor being up on the back heel help shift forward and also with a end point rotation?

Do you see where I am going

I think so...

In TSD, a punch in front stance accelerates the entire mass of the body in order to create a force. The rotational snap of the hips generates the acceleration of the body necessary to generate force. The rootedness of the feet provides a basis in which to push...ala Newtons Third Law...action and reaction forces.

If one lifts up the back heel at the moment of of the strike, there is a transferrence of force through the body that causes the body to rock back onto that stablity point. This force that transfers through the body is exactly equal to the force applied in the punch.

So both peices have to be in place in order for a proper front punch in front stance to take place. The feet should be rooted and the hips should rotate forward. So, I guess, it would be an endpoint, very brief and transitory as one heads into the next technique, but it is an end, nonetheless.

When I look at a form, any form, I should be able to see these end points with beginning students and as a student grows, they will gradually smooth them out into pure fluidity.

 

[The Kai]

Newton'd third law is cited an awful lot, but let me ask you how about a spear or a bullet. Does the impact lessen cuz there is no brace? Does momentum give penatration?

Try this at home punch a heavy bag for a couple of minutes as hard as you can. Do you do it from a boxer's stance or a rooted stance??

 

[The Kai]

Or breaking-which should be the expression of well braced rooted strenght powering through various objects-How many times to you see the person roll his back foot up?
Sorry-I could'nt fingth edit button(I hate quoting myself)

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I was under the impression that the forms or Hyung that the founder of Tang Soo Do taught were lifted out from a book..

Then Mr. Hwang must be a super genius if he was able to study many forms just from a book! I have books, videos, CDROMs and even teachers (who are licensed in Japan) teaching me the Pinans and to this day after 5 years of Wado-ryu I am still unable to perform any of them properly

 

[Makalakumu]

In the pyung ahn forms, there are all kinds of different stances and in many of these stances a "punch" is delivered.

Punching in front stance is only one type of punching. The context of the form is very important and stances are telling one everything they need to know about the footwork in an application.

With a front punch, the purpose is to drive the entire body forward and really propell yourself from a rooted position. Why? Because some application are telling you to really drive into your opponent. Or sometimes the punch isn't a punch, its a joint lock and you are going to use your body's forward motion to break the joint.

The front stance is telling me that a technique is being performed from a rooted postion. Another stance would tell me something different. I hope this makes sense...

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

Then Mr. Hwang must be a super genius if he was able to study many forms just from a book! I have books, videos, CDROMs and even teachers (who are licensed in Japan) teaching me the Pinans and to this day after 5 years of Wado-ryu I am still unable to perform any of them properly

I don't think he received all his training from books...

 

[The Kai]

One more little question
Do your forms have a "boxer's stance while punching"

The Front stance Punch most basic application is punching, right? even in the context of driving your weight into a joint shifting up to the ball of the rear foor shifts your weight forward-would that not be a good thing? You are breaking the joint (imapct) rather then reinforcing the joint (bracing)

I just wonder why the rooted heel is so strongly entrenchened.

 

[Makalakumu]

One more little question. Do your forms have a "boxer's stance while punching"

Yes. Hu gul jaseh and Han Bao Seo Kee. The first is more of a back stance, but the latter can be interpretted as a weight forward boxer stance. We don't teach Han Bao until red belt...and I think this is a mistake, so I go through some basic boxing well before that time.

The Front stance Punch most basic application is punching, right? even in the context of driving your weight into a joint shifting up to the ball of the rear foor shifts your weight forward-would that not be a good thing? You are breaking the joint (imapct) rather then reinforcing the joint (bracing)

I think the importance of working a front stance with beginners is not neccessarily to teach them to punch, but to teach them to move their bodies and use their hips. Feeling any root takes lots of practice and the fundamentals that teach this take a LOOOONG time to learn.

I just wonder why the rooted heel is so strongly entrenchened.

I think that the reason it is so prevelent just goes to show just how much tuite is in our forms. The infighting and stuff from the clinch is everywhere and I think that this rooted position coupled with ways to move our bodies that maximize our power give us some key fundamentals to deal with these situations.

 

[The Kai]

Watch a boxer in tghe clinch they still are off thier heels, in fact more then one commentator watch the heels to see when a fighter is slowing.
Evne in Tuite here's a example when you want to chop a branch in have with a axe, do you swing the axe or brace it under a rock and use the handle to apply pressure?

Maybe the back heel being down is vestigal from the okinwan leaning stance

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I don't think he received all his training from books...

Perhaps he took his time to study some Karate in Japan, like what Oyama sensei did? I know of some Korean people (Oyama sensei was one) who studied Japanese martial art under Japanese name.. Even the famous Rikidozan (Momota Mitsuhiro) was actually a Korean..

 

[Makalakumu]

Perhaps he took his time to study some Karate in Japan, like what Oyama sensei did? I know of some Korean people (Oyama sensei was one) who studied Japanese martial art under Japanese name.. Even the famous Rikidozan (Momota Mitsuhiro) was actually a Korean..

To tell you the truth, I just don't know. There is so much information out there that its hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. And in reality, for me, it doesn't matter. All of my upline instructors were broad based martial artists with my teacher's teacher's teacher being probably the best martial artist I have EVER seen. And Master Seiberlich was a direct student of Hwang Kee. That has got to say something about the gm's training...

 

[Makalakumu]

Watch a boxer in tghe clinch they still are off thier heels, in fact more then one commentator watch the heels to see when a fighter is slowing.

Even in Tuite here's an example when you want to chop a branch in have with a axe, do you swing the axe or brace it under a rock and use the handle to apply pressure?

Maybe the back heel being down is vestigal from the okinwan leaning stance?

I think it all depends on the situation and the context of the form. Some techniques are rooted and others are not.

In TSD we don't really train for a fight that resembles a boxing match. When we get into the clinch, we're ready to work.

Maybe some of the Okinawan stylists will come back and give us some insight into how they view the heel issue?

 

[The Kai]

The clinch in boxing (between 2 good boxers) is very active. When a fighter gets tired it tends to become a hug fest

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

To tell you the truth, I just don't know. There is so much information out there that its hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. And in reality, for me, it doesn't matter. All of my upline instructors were broad based martial artists with my teacher's teacher's teacher being probably the best martial artist I have EVER seen. And Master Seiberlich was a direct student of Hwang Kee. That has got to say something about the gm's training...

Yup. I agree that Mr. Hwang Kee should be considered as one of the most prominent figures of korean martial arts in the 20th century. And the forms he created himself (like the Chul Sang series) is also very nice

 

[The Kai]

So nwithin the context of the Kata, Pyung has a much strighter spine then the Okinwan version.

How about the differneces in stepping keep the same level or ride up and down?

Blocks, where is the start position, where does the other hand do during the block?

 

[Makalakumu]

The clinch in boxing (between 2 good boxers) is very active. When a fighter gets tired it tends to become a hug fest

On thing I don't like about boxing is how knees and elbows aren't used in the clinch. There are some good punches that one can try, but knees and elbows are far more effective weapons. There are some good combinations in pyung ahn cho dan.

 

[Makalakumu]

So nwithin the context of the Kata, Pyung has a much strighter spine then the Okinwan version.

I think so, however, we still keep our spines curved forward for some of the reasons mentioned by Mr. Rivers.

How about the differneces in stepping keep the same level or ride up and down?

It depends on the stance. Our horse stance is lower them our front stance. And our back stance is higher then our front stance.

Blocks, where is the start position, where does the other hand do during the block?

This depends on the technique. There is always an intermediate postion. Both hands are always doing something. For instance, with our down block, the off hand curls around to the short ribs.

 

[The Kai]

Yes putting elbows, forearms, knees into clinch fighting can be a ton of fun

Okay when you move from one stance into the next, do you keep level or rise up and down