Poor Guard (hands lowered while sparring)

[Rumy73]

Greetings! Having come over to TKD from SBK/TSD, I've noticed that many (not all) students attending schools that Olympic-style sparring have a very bad habit of keeping his or her guard lowered during training and/or sparring. When TKD first appeared in the Olympics, I was surprised to see this phenomena. Trying not to be judgmental, I asked very excellent TKD practioner about it. He explained that the TKD players do this for three reasons: 1. he/she has confidence in his/her reaction time and speed to avoid an attack; 2. punches cannot be thrown to the face; 3. lowering the hands conserves energy. I understand and appreciate these factors, which having a singular applicability to competition; however, I still find it to be a bad habit, which if unchecked, can carry over into free-style sparring or self-defense with dire consequences. In my own TKD Olympic-sparring sessions (which is limited set of experiences, mind you), having had my hands up has saved my head more than I care to admit. Thoughts? Comments? Videos?

Thanks in advance! You guys and gals help me grow and learn.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Greetings! Having come over to TKD from SBK/TSD, I've noticed that many (not all) students attending schools that Olympic-style sparring have a very bad habit of keeping his or her guard lowered during training and/or sparring. When TKD first appeared in the Olympics, I was surprised to see this phenomena. Trying not to be judgmental, I asked very excellent TKD practioner about it. He explained that the TKD players do this for three reasons: 1. he/she has confidence in his/her reaction time and speed to avoid an attack; 2. punches cannot be thrown to the face; 3. lowering the hands conserves energy. I understand and appreciate these factors, which having a singular applicability to competition; however, I still find it to be a bad habit, which if unchecked, can carry over into free-style sparring or self-defense with dire consequences. In my own TKD Olympic-sparring sessions (which is limited set of experiences, mind you), having had my hands up has saved my head more than I care to admit. Thoughts? Comments? Videos?

Thanks in advance! You guys and gals help me grow and learn.

I am not TKD, but this is a question I have recently given some thought to, and I do engage in point-sparring in open competitions with other martial artists, including TKD practitioners.

I am learning to drop one hand on purpose to guard my midsection. This is being shown to me by some fellow students. No, it is not necessarily good technique for 'real life', but it certainly has some use in point-sparring.

In point-sparring "Ippon" in Isshin-Ryu, the first good strike gets the point. No head shots except for black belts, and then light touch only. Some TKD tournaments I've been in allow 2 points for 'halo' shots to the head area, though, which can make people into head hunters.

But in one-point sparring, I get kicked a lot in the midsection, and I think it's because of my tendency to keep both hands up (as I was taught) and it exposes me there. The kicks would do no damage to me if it was a 'real' situation, and I believe that my blocks are actually effective - but they don't look effective to the judges. In other words, even if I've deflected the force of the kick, the opponent's toe or foot touched me and that is a point, end of discussion.

So I am practicing carrying one hand low on purpose to guard the midsection. It feels weird, but it is definitely helping me not to get kicked in the midsection for the one-point.

One-point sparring isn't really martial arts or even good self-defense anyway. Kind of like speed-tag. You want to avoid getting tagged. One hand up to protect the face and one hand down to protect the midsection will do that, I'm learning.

Weird, but I think I can do it.

 

[Manny]

Greetings! Having come over to TKD from SBK/TSD, I've noticed that many (not all) students attending schools that Olympic-style sparring have a very bad habit of keeping his or her guard lowered during training and/or sparring. When TKD first appeared in the Olympics, I was surprised to see this phenomena. Trying not to be judgmental, I asked very excellent TKD practioner about it. He explained that the TKD players do this for three reasons: 1. he/she has confidence in his/her reaction time and speed to avoid an attack; 2. punches cannot be thrown to the face; 3. lowering the hands conserves energy. I understand and appreciate these factors, which having a singular applicability to competition; however, I still find it to be a bad habit, which if unchecked, can carry over into free-style sparring or self-defense with dire consequences. In my own TKD Olympic-sparring sessions (which is limited set of experiences, mind you), having had my hands up has saved my head more than I care to admit. Thoughts? Comments? Videos?

Thanks in advance! You guys and gals help me grow and learn.

Well, let me put my two mexican cents.

Point 1.- I think is not valid answer, you can dodge a voley of kicks but sooner or lateer you will be caught with a good solid kick to the head leaving you facing the ceeling and watching stars,little birds and hearing the birds chants.

Point 2.-It's true if punches are not allowed to the face why cover it with a high guard, however we still have high kicks and a vicius kick to the head can leave you like in point 1. However the head is such a small target (compared with the torso) and is always moving so it's not an easy targe.

Point 3.-Conservation of energy... mmmmm....I don't think so.

My point of view is that lowering the hands helps whe you are in costant movement doing step, changin guard,evading and kicking at the same time, in other words .. in WTF style maybe raising the guard can not allow free movement and in some tims lower the times of action or reaction anchoring the body. Sorry for my explanation but English is dificult to me.

It seesm to me with a low guard is easier to move in any direction at fast speed.

Manny

 

[KELLYG]

In point sparing, most of the kicks are coming to the middle of your body, in the form of a round house kick. If you block the kick with your arm then the foot does not make contact with the hogu, then there is no point scored.

However in self defense training the hands are held up to protect your head face and upper body.

Point sparing and self defence are two different animals.

 

[mastercole]

Greetings! Having come over to TKD from SBK/TSD, I've noticed that many (not all) students attending schools that Olympic-style sparring have a very bad habit of keeping his or her guard lowered during training and/or sparring. When TKD first appeared in the Olympics, I was surprised to see this phenomena. Trying not to be judgmental, I asked very excellent TKD practioner about it. He explained that the TKD players do this for three reasons: 1. he/she has confidence in his/her reaction time and speed to avoid an attack; 2. punches cannot be thrown to the face; 3. lowering the hands conserves energy. I understand and appreciate these factors, which having a singular applicability to competition; however, I still find it to be a bad habit, which if unchecked, can carry over into free-style sparring or self-defense with dire consequences. In my own TKD Olympic-sparring sessions (which is limited set of experiences, mind you), having had my hands up has saved my head more than I care to admit. Thoughts? Comments? Videos?

Thanks in advance! You guys and gals help me grow and learn.

I'll address this from an international point of view considering that local competition athletes are seeking to develop international level skills (improved) as a goal.

This is the main thing: "1. he/she has confidence in his/her reaction time and speed to avoid an attack;"

Elite Taekwondo athletes have body and head movements skills comparable to the best boxers. Very different set of skills, developed in a very different way from point fighting, MMA, and just about every other martial art.

Most people would think if you fight in a boxing ring, you should keep your hands up, but that is not always the case either. Even when you look at the most elite boxers, many times they will fight with that hands way down. When they feel they have superior movement to their opponent, some will even dangle their arms to side, and taunt their opponent. Some of these taunted opponents are no joke either.

A few years ago I was visiting friends in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn NY. They took us over to Gleason's boxing gym where we met Pauli Malignaggi. At that time, Pauli was doing really well. We hung around the gym met a lot of people and watched part of Paulie's workout. Afterward we were all talking, one question I asked Pauli was about his tendency to fight with his hands down he said he was "faster/quicker than they are" and added that even if they do catch him, he is already moving (with the punch) and it's not going to do anything.
He also commented that when a guy realizes he can't hit you and you are tagging him at will, his confidence is destroyed and now you can go in for the kill. It's also a part of psychological warfare.

My personal experience is, martial artist who are critical of an elite Taekwondo fighters tendency to have their hands down are looking at the match from the outside or from their own skill set, as sort of an armchair quarterback and most have never had the chance to fight an elite Taekwondo fighter (or an elite boxer), and in my experience if they do get that chance, they come away saying "wow, I could not even touch that guy, with my hands or my feet."

Now I do see MMA guys fight with their hand down at time, but that is just a huge mistake because the one's I have seen have ZERO body or head movement skills, so as a last line of defense, they should keep their hands up.

 

[Rumy73]

I am not TKD, but this is a question I have recently given some thought to, and I do engage in point-sparring in open competitions with other martial artists, including TKD practitioners.

I am learning to drop one hand on purpose to guard my midsection. This is being shown to me by some fellow students. No, it is not necessarily good technique for 'real life', but it certainly has some use in point-sparring.

In point-sparring "Ippon" in Isshin-Ryu, the first good strike gets the point. No head shots except for black belts, and then light touch only. Some TKD tournaments I've been in allow 2 points for 'halo' shots to the head area, though, which can make people into head hunters.

But in one-point sparring, I get kicked a lot in the midsection, and I think it's because of my tendency to keep both hands up (as I was taught) and it exposes me there. The kicks would do no damage to me if it was a 'real' situation, and I believe that my blocks are actually effective - but they don't look effective to the judges. In other words, even if I've deflected the force of the kick, the opponent's toe or foot touched me and that is a point, end of discussion.

So I am practicing carrying one hand low on purpose to guard the midsection. It feels weird, but it is definitely helping me not to get kicked in the midsection for the one-point.

One-point sparring isn't really martial arts or even good self-defense anyway. Kind of like speed-tag. You want to avoid getting tagged. One hand up to protect the face and one hand down to protect the midsection will do that, I'm learning.

Weird, but I think I can do it.

Bill,

Thanks for this constructive insight. It makes a lot of sense. I'm going to investigate it further. I've experienced some of the same things you have - in terms of blocking kicks - but having the judges call them as points. I'm open to doing things differently. Thanks again!

 

[KELLYG]

I was under the impression that blocking the kick, it has to be blocked away from your body. If the kick is strong enough to go through your defense and make your arm contact your body then the point is scored. Sparing is not my thing so this info may not be 100% accurate

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I was under the impression that blocking the kick, it has to be blocked away from your body. If the kick is strong enough to go through your defense and make your arm contact your body then the point is scored. Sparing is not my thing so this info may not be 100% accurate

These are the rules for one of the tournaments I recently sparred at:

http://www.greatlakeskaratecircuit.com/rules

WHAT IS A POINT: A point is a controlled legal sport karate technique scored by a competitor in-bounds and up-right (not considered down) without time being called that strikes a competitor with the allowable amount of focused touch contact to a legal target area.

LEGAL TARGET AREAS: Entire head including face (Black belt division only), ribs, chest, abdomen, collarbone and kidneys. ILLEGAL TARGET AREAS: Face (Underbelts only), Spine, back of neck, throat, sides of the neck, groin, legs, knees and back. NON-TARGET AREAS: Hips, shoulders, buttocks, arms, and feet. LEGAL TECHNIQUES: Legal techniques are all controlled sport karate techniques, except those listed as illegal. ILLEGAL TECNIQUES: Head butts, hair pulls, bites, scratches, elbows, knees, eye attacks of any kind, take downs, ground fighting, any stomps or kicks to the head of a downed competitor, slapping, grabbing, uncontrolled blind techniques, any throws, sweeps, leg checks and any other uncontrolled dangerous techniques that are deemed unsafe in sport karate.

That to me means that a kick to the abdomen that hits and arm and drives the arm into the abdomen is not a point. But this is just one tournament, other rules may be different, and of course the judges call 'em like they see 'em.

However, I'm definitely working it in to my next competition, as I am tired of keeping my hands up like a boxer and getting kicked in the gut over and over and over...

Notice the next to last point and the last point against me. My hands were well up - I got kicked in the gut. I hardly even noticed the kick, the impact was like nothing. But it hit and it counts. If my arm had been down in a lower guard position, I would have avoided that, and I have my other hand to guard my face/head.

 

[mastercole]

These are the rules for one of the tournaments I recently sparred at:

http://www.greatlakeskaratecircuit.com/rules



That to me means that a kick to the abdomen that hits and arm and drives the arm into the abdomen is not a point. But this is just one tournament, other rules may be different, and of course the judges call 'em like they see 'em.

However, I'm definitely working it in to my next competition, as I am tired of keeping my hands up like a boxer and getting kicked in the gut over and over and over...

Notice the next to last point and the last point against me. My hands were well up - I got kicked in the gut. I hardly even noticed the kick, the impact was like nothing. But it hit and it counts. If my arm had been down in a lower guard position, I would have avoided that, and I have my other hand to guard my face/head.

Just to clarify, this is what is generally considered "point sparring" some people call it "point karate" but it's usually a mix of striking styles found in the USA, a type of mixed martial art sparring event that takes place primarily in the USA, not Olympic Style Taekwondo sparring.

 

[KELLYG]

I think that with the introduction of the electronic hogu, in WTF Olympic sparing, the foot sensor has to contact the hogu. The other information was the rules we used at a local tournament. Like I said sparing is not my gig.

"getting kicked in the gut over and over and over..." yes getting kicked over and over in the same spot stinks, a lower guard may be in order.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Quite simply, it works for a lot of people. Not me, personally, but it does work for lots of people I know and have competed with. Personally, I keep my hands "up" in some kind of guard all the time but I really don't have a rigid stance when sparring so my hands move lots. (I feel off when my hands are down, and you won't believe this, but it mainly comes from Judo.)

Lots of very talented TaeKwonDoin I grew up training with could get in the ring, fight with their hands down, then step out of the ring to demonstrate a technique and look like they just stepped out of the Kukkiwon.

 

[puunui]

He explained that the TKD players do this for three reasons: 1. he/she has confidence in his/her reaction time and speed to avoid an attack; 2. punches cannot be thrown to the face; 3. lowering the hands conserves energy.

Reasons 2 and 3 are not accurate reasons why competitors leave their hands down. The main reason is number 1, mainly because elite level fighters are taught to start exchanges from unreachable distance, meaning that your opponent must take a step forward in order to strike you. That the main reason why. Put another way, why raise your shields if there is no threat and your opponent is outside of kicking, much less punching distance? People who advocate a hands up guard at all times, including when out of your opponent's striking distance generally do not think of using footwork as their first line of defense and tend to just stand there in reachable distance and trade blows, either punching or kicking, since to them, it's all the same distance.

 

[puunui]

I am learning to drop one hand on purpose to guard my midsection. This is being shown to me by some fellow students. No, it is not necessarily good technique for 'real life', but it certainly has some use in point-sparring.

In almost every style that I have taken, our "self defense" techniques almost always starts from a neutral stance with the hands down. One step sparring also traditionally starts like this.

 

[armortkd]

Master Cole hits the nail on the head!!!! We are talking about "skill sets". It's very much like comparing marathon runners and sprinters. Watch their upperbody motion and tension. Here's what I tell any beginner, outside Martial Art practitioner, and inexperience Olympic TKD student on why you see elite TKD players with their guard down:

1. Distance: 2 players are flirting with the line of reachable distance from off-the-line kicks. Head kicks are shorter than body kicks.

2. Tension: Stiff/rigid arms prior to kicking thru the kick motion slow down leg speed. We teach students to use their arms in the kicking motion. NFL coaches teach their cornerbacks to relax their arms so they are explosive at the snap of ball.

3. Covering: Modern Olympic TKD emphasizes "covering" versus "blocking". I ran into Joe Lewis of all people at a hotel back in 2005 while we were both vacationing. It was actually very funny.....we were both ordering food-to-go and I made a comment about the $7 chocolate chip cookie. He laughed and we joked about it. We ended up talking, and the subject on many martial arts traditions came up. Even he emphasizes the concept of "covering" because blocking was used for SD for protection.....better yet used for breaking!!!

Only after I talk to these people these 3 concepts that I explain/demonstrate when elite players bring their guard up in the clinch, during an interchange, or avoiding a counter attack. When I was a younger man, I'd just ask them to suit up and we spar under Olympic rules fterwards. It always opened their eyes. Heck, I'd point-fight them and punch them in the head. Just about everytime we'd end up laughing and discussing TKD theory.

 

[tinker1]

I was under the impression that blocking the kick, it has to be blocked away from your body. If the kick is strong enough to go through your defense and make your arm contact your body then the point is scored. Sparing is not my thing so this info may not be 100% accurate

tournament rules.. that's one thing.. sparring in class where if the kick lands it will hurt.. that's another.

I don't have a set stance for sparring / fighting.. I kind of go with the flow. But if I did - it would be as I most commonly position myself. Left foot forward, weight on the balls of my feet but NOT bouncing. Left elbow close to my side, left hand slightly extended. Right arm held low - elbow bent though.

Let's say the kick coming is a round house kick.. either from my opponents lead leg if he's standing left foot forward (closed position), or from my opponents rear leg if he's standing right foot forward (open position).

As the kick comes in I pivot on my lead foot, stepping back with my right foot. This changes my body angle such that I'm out of the "maximum pressure zone" - zone where the kick has the most power.

I allow the kick to land on my body - it has very limited power at this angle. As it lands I slide my right arm forward slightly, allowing the kick to strike my right upper arm. As this happens I bend my right elbow, moving my hand upward. This will capture my opponents leg.

I then pivot on my right foot, sweeping my opponents supporting leg with my left leg. Down he goes. This is the counter of blending forces.

That's one approach.

The other is to start the defense the same way, with the pivot on the left foot. Instead though I shoot a straight right reverse punch - my usual target is the solar plexus.

That approach is the counter of opposites. In other words counter a circular attack with a linear strike, and counter a linear attack with a circular strike.

For me, hand position is dynamic. I don't like to keep my body in any fixed position as this gives my opponent the opportunity to find and exploit a weakness - and any / all positions have weaknesses.

So, sometimes I do spar with hands down.. other times they're up in a muay thai style. Still other times I am extending them toward my opponent to take control of the middle ground between us. Whomever controls the space between usually wins the match.

Sorry.. rambling thoughts there.

 

[tinker1]

In almost every style that I have taken, our "self defense" techniques almost always starts from a neutral stance with the hands down. One step sparring also traditionally starts like this.

Master Long used to teach us to stand casually, at a slight angle to someone we view as a threat. Then leaving your left elbow down, reach up with your left hand and scratch the left side of your face. With your right arm, reach across your chest and clasp your left elbow with your right hand.

This is an excellent position because it looks casual and seem non threatening, yet you are covered about as well as you can be for the situation.

 

[ATC]

People who advocate a hands up guard at all times, including when out of your opponent's striking distance generally do not think of using footwork as their first line of defense and tend to just stand there in reachable distance and trade blows, either punching or kicking, since to them, it's all the same distance.

DING! DING! DING!

All beginners are like this and always have their hands up at all times. It is just natural. But those same beginners can never hit squat and get tagged in the head, body, back, you name it, regardless of their hands being up. Why? Because they have no footwork, they also do not understand distance at all.

Now when I say beginners I am talking about even Black Belts that just don't spar at the elite level.

 

[puunui]

Master Long used to teach us to stand casually, at a slight angle to someone we view as a threat. Then leaving your left elbow down, reach up with your left hand and scratch the left side of your face. With your right arm, reach across your chest and clasp your left elbow with your right hand.

This is an excellent position because it looks casual and seem non threatening, yet you are covered about as well as you can be for the situation.

That was Bruce Lee's stance as well. You can see pictures of him doing that every once in a while.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Master Long used to teach us to stand casually, at a slight angle to someone we view as a threat. Then leaving your left elbow down, reach up with your left hand and scratch the left side of your face. With your right arm, reach across your chest and clasp your left elbow with your right hand.

This is an excellent position because it looks casual and seem non threatening, yet you are covered about as well as you can be for the situation.

Some call this the "Jack Benny" defenssive posture. If you are too young to know who he was tnhen you have no idea why. Here's a photo

http://trialx.com/curetalk/wp-content/blogs.dir/7/files/2011/03/gcelebrities/Jack_Benny-2.jpg

 

[tinker1]

elite level fighters are taught to start exchanges from unreachable distance, meaning that your opponent must take a step forward in order to strike you. That the main reason why. Put another way, why raise your shields if there is no threat and your opponent is outside of kicking, much less punching distance? People who advocate a hands up guard at all times, including when out of your opponent's striking distance generally do not think of using footwork as their first line of defense and tend to just stand there in reachable distance and trade blows, either punching or kicking, since to them, it's all the same distance.

just stand there rookie mistake. If you "just stand there" long enough, you're going to start looking like a training bag to your opponent.

Movement is constant and distance is dynamic.

Very early lessons in training revolve around crowding a kicker and keeping a distance from a puncher. You have to play with the distance, move in (take away), move back (give back).. also with the angles.

One of the issues with training is that during sparring the training floor tends to get crowded. You like people up in rows, have them face each other and start sparring. The crowded conditions make it difficult for people to move to the side at an angle, because there's another group sparring right next to you. This unfortunately limits motion to mostly forward and back - and so when they are in a match they fall into that old habit.