Point Fighting: Is it truly Karate?

[Junbu]

Your right

 

[Junbu]

Anyway relax Dave b you seem like the kinda guy that would do good to read that book I mentioned earlier

 

[Tez3]

Originally all of them! were designed for the battlefield.thats why they were created in styles and systems what we do in the dojo has to be battlefield tested and validated the warrior class would have nothing to do with art "on a battlefield" also originally done wearing armory

No, not all of them. Some were meant for civilian self defence. Look it up. Not all martial arts were created for 'the warrior class', not all martial arts were 'battlefield tested' and certainly not designed to be performed in armour.

 

[Junbu]

Where would I find that info please , sorry you guys I seem to have checked into the wrong chat room honestly I have never been on one a friend e,-mail me a few of them and I logged on I didn't expect this look at my amount of posts

 

[Tez3]

Where would I find that info please , sorry you guys I seem to have checked into the wrong chat room honestly I have never been on one a friend e,-mail me a few of them and I logged on I didn't expect this look at my amount of posts

We aren't a chat room, we are a discussion board for martial artists. We do discuss things a lot, sometimes in quite an academic way. When statements are made citations are usually expected to back up assertions,
We are a friendly place though, if you want to know more about martial art I guarantee we'll have people, real experts, who can tell you what you like to know. Don't be put off by so many posters, they don't bite honestly, jump in and join in.

 

[drop bear]

People can play sports and train to defend themselves. The two areas actually complement one another, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Plus whatever this or other clubs choose to do in training, it is still training. The martial art is what they do when the skills are used for their purpose. De Ja vu.

Lastly, and this time I mean it, it is interesting to note how Mr "evidence based" suddenly takes it on faith that a club with nothing but images of sports events on their site and only a passing mention of self defense is self defense focused.

Well your faith won't move this mountain. You lost this game six moves ago and slipping pieces back on the board won't change that.

Lol. It is not the grammar. You don't get the concepts.

People can play sports that train to defend themselves. Which is why they compliment each other. That makes them the same thing.

Martial arts is the training. You have confused the sport with the hobby. In the sport you don't really do that sport unless you compete. In the hobby. The training is the objective. You train for self defence in the hope you don't have to use those skills for their purpose. Nobody does gun defence in the hope someone is going to stick an actual gun in their face.

Evidence based is still applicable. Your claim was that the objective defined the activity. One objective was self defence. That defines their activity. That is the point made there.

(I think your point was trying to be they are not very good at it. But that will open a new concept)

Congratulations you win. But you are still playing checkers. Not chess.

 

[drop bear]

Originally all of them! were designed for the battlefield.thats why they were created in styles and systems what we do in the dojo has to be battlefield tested and validated the warrior class would have nothing to do with art "on a battlefield" also originally done wearing armory

So sumo. Wrestling. Boxing. Karate. Tkd. Akido. Capoera. Savate.

The chun? (Not sure)

All of these martial arts were either sports or for civilian protection or both.

Martial arts timeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Junbu]

Wrestling-Greco Roman was the first martial science system Aikido is a group that broke from its parent science jiu jitsu capoeira was a system turned into a dance due to martial training was made illegal in Brazil tkd was karate that migrated from Okinawa and China into Korea boxing no. Wing chun yes martial science savate was a bunch of French sailors so you field that one soundslike you could use a vacation

 

[Junbu]

Top poster hey nice job I would hat to be all those guys ears after listening to your ____________

 

[drop bear]

Wrestling-Greco Roman was the first martial science system Aikido is a group that broke from its parent science jiu jitsu capoeira was a system turned into a dance due to martial training was made illegal in Brazil tkd was karate that migrated from Okinawa and China into Korea boxing no. Wing chun yes martial science savate was a bunch of French sailors so you field that one soundslike you could use a vacation

OK. Which martial arts do you consider were designed for the battlefield?

And why does that make them any better anyway?

 

[Junbu]

No martial arts, just martial science , you know you got top poster why don't you spend more time at a dojo you would'nt have to pillow fight all the time

 

[drop bear]

No martial arts, just martial science , you know you got top poster why don't you spend more time at a dojo you would'nt have to pillow fight all the time

It is 8 in the morning no dojo going at the moment.

What is the difference between martial science and martial art.

 

[Junbu]

go away

 

[drop bear]

go away

No....

 

[Junbu]

Tez is right on ,correct me if I'm wrong I think certain teqnique are kept out of the point sparing and that I would find fault with, so much over the years has been removed that I would like to see as much stay in tact and included in the systems as always was

 

[DaveB]

People can play sports that train to defend themselves. Which is why they compliment each other. That makes them the same thing.

They can play sports that develop skills enabling self defense. Since skill development is training, to do so with the intention of improving self defense ability is to train for self defense.

That is not a martial art. That is training through game playing. A very effective way to learn.

The training has dual purpose, bestowed by the individual. The sport IS the set of rules that are in effect in competition. It can have no purpose other than it's objectives because it is completely defined by those rules.

Training has purpose only to the individual hence it is as varied as meditation at one end and zumba at the other.

Martial arts is the training. You have confused the sport with the hobby. In the sport you don't really do that sport unless you compete. In the hobby. The training is the objective. You train for self defence in the hope you don't have to use those skills for their purpose. Nobody does gun defence in the hope someone is going to stick an actual gun in their face.

Why would a person's hopes about the future define an activity?

And so the sport is defined by the objective but the hobby isn't?
So by what law do we divide one activity into "objective" based and another into "hopes for the future" based?
Wait I know this one... It's the law of "dropbear needs to claim combat sport's dominance over TMA in every way conceivable". I forgot what the formula is though.

Seriously though, martial arts training is the hobby. The martial art is something different.

You even contradict.yourself

The training is the objective. You train for self defence in the hope you don't have to use those skills for their purpose.

The training is the objective. But then self defense is the objective. You admit the skills have a purpose but deny that said purpose (self defense) is an activity in its own right?

Essentially sports are the only real actions a person can take, right? An interesting philosophical point of view but way too existential for a karate forum.

And what about the cello?

Am I playing the cello while I practice finger positions. It's not a sport and I only play for fun making it a hobby, therefore I must be playing when I practice isolated skills, just as you are suggesting for the martial arts.

Evidence based is still applicable. Your claim was that the objective defined the activity. One objective was self defence. That defines their activity. That is the point made there.

I said a thing is defined by it's objective and you take that to mean a whole karate club must have a self defense focus because they wrote the words self defense in one corner of their website while displaying nothing else to suggest such?

It might well be an objective of a portion of their training (training being an activity all its own) but that was a disingenuous argument. I am genuinely disappointed. Not least because you allowed yourself to sink to such low evidential standards. (one word vs the whole rest of the multi page website).

(I think your point was trying to be they are not very good at it. But that will open a new concept)

I have no need to make such judgements as my posting history will confirm. My one and only point in this thread is that a sport is not the same thing as a martial art. There are similarities, but they are different. I make no judgement about which is better as such an opinion would be meaningless.

 

[Junbu]

That was a well written post I am in complete agreement sport is not martial and a person can develop skills useful in a sport gym I won't call it a dojo, like I said I am in agreement with you . The original topic was is sport really karate and I think we would agree that karate included grappling wepons and percossion as well as kata and held to tradition only passing on their schools secrets after a person proved himself trustworthy

 

[Junbu]

With all the serious martialist on this site I am however surprised that I keep reading the word arts from everyone martial and art are like oil and water arts were musashi painting my absolute favorite piece "shrike on a withered branch" but he would never put his sword school in an art category its biomechanics science there is a topic to discuss if anyone is interested most of you guys seem serious and study things out dig deep for Ansers What is this art ?

 

[DaveB]

With all the serious martialist on this site I am however surprised that I keep reading the word arts from everyone martial and art are like oil and water arts were musashi painting my absolute favorite piece "shrike on a withered branch" but he would never put his sword school in an art category its biomechanics science there is a topic to discuss if anyone is interested most of you guys seem serious and study things out dig deep for Ansers What is this art ?

Applying a literalist view of language to an endeavour that comes from a different time and place doesn't gain us anything.

When the term was coined, art referred to any masterable skill including science.

Even though in modern times we view "art" as a reference to aesthetics, I still don't think a change of terminology is necessary.

For one thing there's way to much subjectiveness involved to ever really enable the use of the term science.

Secondly the term art for me captures the individual nature of the practice.

 

[Buka]

There's a lot of ways to point fight in your school. One of the ways we used to do was -

There is no tapping to the top of the head. There is contact to the face to all that participate. There is groin contact. If you don't know how to protect your groin you will learn. If you like to hop around with one leg in the air to flick kicks - you will probably never do that again. If you like to kick and hang your kick - you won't do that again, either.

A brush or touch to the face or body does not constitute a point and will not be called. Only one guy, the referee, calls a point. But he does not stop the action to call a point so participants should not stop if they hear him yell point, only if they hear him yell STOP. If they do stop on a point - partner should blast them. All participants should defend themselves at all times.

All sweeps are allowed. When someone goes down their opponent will have two seconds to score on them.

If someone runs out of bounds too many times their opponent will be allowed to chase them down like the dog they are.

All contact is controlled. If someone goes too hard they will be warned. A second transgression is considered serious. A third will result in getting their *** kicked by the referee immediately.

It's still point fighting. But it's way more fun. And students seem to love it, even the kids.